Matching numbers

MikeP · 03-30-2010, 08:24 PM

I'm from the old days when say, a mismatched bolt or even a small part or two on a K98 was a deal killer.

I was at a show recently and a young guy was looking at a
99+% BYF 41.
Fabled "Black Widow"(snicker)

I understand the present craze over these and just accept it.

The price was about $2400, I believe, and it was in Primo cond.

The trigger was one number off.
I know guys always say "factory error."
Just curious on what folks think about that as an actual possibility and how a situation like this would affect a deal for you.

As I said, this was about the best example I ever saw.

I wouldn't pay that much, but I have one.
I know you have to pay extra for exceptional pieces.

Norme · 03-30-2010, 08:48 PM

Hi Mike, About a year ago I listed a Colt pocket pistol with what I believe was a factory mismatched loading lever. Bidding was surprisingly strong. I asked the winning bidder, when he came to pick up the gun (he lived nearby), what effect the mismatch had on his bidding. He told me that he thought of it as a plus, an interesting anomaly. Regards, Norm

DavidJayUden · 03-30-2010, 09:11 PM

My theory is that it all depends on which side of the deal you are on. If I'm selling then it is a rarity that boosts the value, but if I'm buying it absolutely destroys the collectability, and value.
Just kidding, of course...
dju

Edward Tinker · 03-30-2010, 09:16 PM

what David said above has much truth in it tho.

I truely beleive that one number off, is likely a mixup at the company level (I never believe it is a factory error, unless it is a P38 or PP that was taken from the factory).

Couple of guys cleaning / learning about their new issued guns and they screwed up. That is the best way to look at it, otherwise, it is a total mismatch and that was as close as BobRay could get it.

Ed

alanint · 03-30-2010, 10:36 PM

Colt collectors call this a "campfire switch", i.e., a cavalry unit gets issued pistols all in the same serial block. Routinely or after an action they all gather around a campfire, throw a blanket on the ground and as they clean their individual pieces, throw the parts onto the blanket and move onto another area of their firearm. A trooper sitting next door picks up the part he believes is his and this part a number or two away ends up on his gun.
They didn't care, as long as the assembled gun worked.

wlyon · 03-31-2010, 12:06 AM

I feel we place to much emphasis on totally matching numbers. Of course we would all prefer all matching numbers including two mags. But let's get real. The more we demand this perfection the more we can expect them to be faked.If the firearm is in good condition and one small part was replaced somewhere sometime so what. This is especially true on those firearms that are rather hard to find. I don't buy mismatched parts guns. But if it is one I want and the say firing pin is mismatched I really don't worry about it. Would I prefer that it matched,of course. But certaintly not enough to stop me from purchasing it. One mismatched part does not detract from the history etc. of the firearm. Just my two cents. Bill

John Sabato · 03-31-2010, 09:46 AM

Well Said Bill!

Dwight Gruber · 04-01-2010, 12:19 AM

Matching numbers are expected, not "exceptional". Speculative fantasy excuses are no substitute for authenticity. On a $2.4k Luger, a stone deal killer.

Buy the gun, not the story.

--Dwight

03-30-2010, 08:24 PM	#1
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Matching numbers I'm from the old days when say, a mismatched bolt or even a small part or two on a K98 was a deal killer. I was at a show recently and a young guy was looking at a 99+% BYF 41. Fabled "Black Widow"(snicker) I understand the present craze over these and just accept it. The price was about $2400, I believe, and it was in Primo cond. The trigger was one number off. I know guys always say "factory error." Just curious on what folks think about that as an actual possibility and how a situation like this would affect a deal for you. As I said, this was about the best example I ever saw. I wouldn't pay that much, but I have one. I know you have to pay extra for exceptional pieces.

03-30-2010, 08:48 PM	#2
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Mike, About a year ago I listed a Colt pocket pistol with what I believe was a factory mismatched loading lever. Bidding was surprisingly strong. I asked the winning bidder, when he came to pick up the gun (he lived nearby), what effect the mismatch had on his bidding. He told me that he thought of it as a plus, an interesting anomaly. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

03-30-2010, 09:16 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	what David said above has much truth in it tho. I truely beleive that one number off, is likely a mixup at the company level (I never believe it is a factory error, unless it is a P38 or PP that was taken from the factory). Couple of guys cleaning / learning about their new issued guns and they screwed up. That is the best way to look at it, otherwise, it is a total mismatch and that was as close as BobRay could get it. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-31-2010, 12:06 AM	#6
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,144 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	I feel we place to much emphasis on totally matching numbers. Of course we would all prefer all matching numbers including two mags. But let's get real. The more we demand this perfection the more we can expect them to be faked.If the firearm is in good condition and one small part was replaced somewhere sometime so what. This is especially true on those firearms that are rather hard to find. I don't buy mismatched parts guns. But if it is one I want and the say firing pin is mismatched I really don't worry about it. Would I prefer that it matched,of course. But certaintly not enough to stop me from purchasing it. One mismatched part does not detract from the history etc. of the firearm. Just my two cents. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

03-31-2010, 09:46 AM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Well Said Bill! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-30-2010, 09:11 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	My theory is that it all depends on which side of the deal you are on. If I'm selling then it is a rarity that boosts the value, but if I'm buying it absolutely destroys the collectability, and value. Just kidding, of course... dju

03-30-2010, 10:36 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Colt collectors call this a "campfire switch", i.e., a cavalry unit gets issued pistols all in the same serial block. Routinely or after an action they all gather around a campfire, throw a blanket on the ground and as they clean their individual pieces, throw the parts onto the blanket and move onto another area of their firearm. A trooper sitting next door picks up the part he believes is his and this part a number or two away ends up on his gun. They didn't care, as long as the assembled gun worked.

04-01-2010, 12:19 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Matching numbers are expected, not "exceptional". Speculative fantasy excuses are no substitute for authenticity. On a $2.4k Luger, a stone deal killer. Buy the gun, not the story. --Dwight