Import or Export???

sheepherder · 09-18-2009, 09:45 AM

In another thread concerning the marking "Germany" on the mag bottom of a commercial, Ron Wood said -

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Postino,
The magazines are not "import" marked, they are "export" marked. Unlike today's import marked Lugers that have markings applied in the U.S. by the importer, these original magazines were marked in Germany for export to English speaking countries.

Hmmmm...I was thinking that the stamp on the front of the grip frame was applied at the same time as the mag stamp (and was actually the same stamp)...Were they both applied by the DWM factory or distributor at the same time, for foreign export???

I have two commercial DWM Lugers, and one has Germany stamped on the front of the grip frame under the 5-digit serial - the other is stamped above the sideplate, on a 4-digit serial + letter commercial Luger...

Is one an export, and one an import??? Or just different people/timeframes doing the marking in a different place on the frame???

If so, is there a reason for marking in two (or more) different spots on the pistol???

Edward Tinker · 09-18-2009, 10:30 AM

no one knows the reason.

If a new manufacturer by DWM I beleive it was stamped by them.

if a WW1, refurb, etc, then it could have been applied by anyone, in Germany, not here.

alvin · 09-18-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

If so, is there a reason for marking in two (or more) different spots on the pistol???

MFC's comments made lots of sense to me in that thread -- the GERMANY marked magazine was probably a replacement magazine or a backup one. I feel (feel, 6th sense) replacement was more likely. In that way, GERMANY on seperately sold magazine (not 'freely' coming with the gun's price) makes huge amount of sense.

/////

Edit:

But a feeling should have a reason. Why it's more likely being a replacement?

Assume those guns came with two magazines 'free', if the GERMANY magazine was the 2nd magazine, we are supposed to see lots of them today. But those are very rare, ...., where did this rareness come from? ..... how many people would spend more $$ buying extra magazines, ....., probably not many, and importers did not import many spare magazines.

MFC · 09-19-2009, 12:44 AM

This is one explanation that I saw on the forum:
Commercial Lugers exported to the US, had GERMANY stamped on them. This is in accordance with US law, that all items imported must have the country of origin on it. Since the Luger was already stamped, the mag that was in it didn't need the stamp. Replacement or second mags had to have the stamp.

I beleive the only commercial Lugers that were sold with extra mags as a packaged deal, were the cased sets. Any other combination of a Luger and accessories were purchased seperately.
GERMANY or MADE IN GERMANY stamps can be found on many different places on Alphabet commercials. Some are even stamped upside down. These are all export stamps. Import stamps are usually the name or logo of the importer.

sheepherder · 09-19-2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

MFC's comments made lots of sense to me in that thread -- the GERMANY marked magazine was probably a replacement magazine or a backup one. I feel (feel, 6th sense) replacement was more likely. In that way, GERMANY on seperately sold magazine (not 'freely' coming with the gun's price) makes huge amount of sense...

It makes sense to me, too...as well as MFC's post above...

But the reason I opened a separate thread was because I wondered why my two commercial Lugers had the stamp in different places...(I hadn't thought about it until reading the mag thread)...

Some pistols I've seen pics of even have the names of the receiving distributor here in the US stamped lengthwise on the barrel, or etched on the grip frame...

I have a Mauser M1896 that has no "export" marking, but does have the "importer" etched into the grip frame recess...as well as caliber and country of origin...

I would say that if the pistol is known to be an exported product, then the manufacturer will stamp it; if it is war surplus or anything that was never intended for export, then the importer will stamp/mark it...At least that is my belief, at this time...

Vlim · 09-19-2009, 12:01 PM

Until around 1969, surplus guns could be imported with ease and they were marked according to the US import laws, with the country of origin (which sometimes was played with a bit, like the 'made in Switzerland A&F lugers'.

After 1969, there was a ban on the import of surplus weapons, but I believe that those that qualified as a C&R did not have to be stamped with the country of origin. Can someone confirm this?

Ice · 09-19-2009, 06:22 PM

I have both a Luger shooter and a 1943 Tokarev TT333 that are marked with importer stamps so I think that even C&R have to be marked.

Charlie

alvin · 09-19-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

I would say that if the pistol is known to be an exported product, then the manufacturer will stamp it; if it is war surplus or anything that was never intended for export, then the importer will stamp/mark it...At least that is my belief, at this time...

GERMANY could be on war surplus as well. I have seen more than one wartime made C96 with GERMANY. The finish looks old with minor rust and patina.... but C/C/U is under full gun blue without discoloration, and GERMANY has halo. so those were supposed to be Weimar era refurbished guns (old refinish). I assume factory/Weimar government contractor refurbished those old WWI guns and applied GERMANY for exporting to the U.S. in that era. Why refurbishing? to sell a good price on surplus market

So, when GERMANY was applied, the gun did not have to be new.

Vlim · 09-20-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

I have both a Luger shooter and a 1943 Tokarev TT333 that are marked with importer stamps so I think that even C&R have to be marked.

Charlie, do the P08 and the Tokarev have 'Germany' or 'Russia' or 'Made in Germany' or 'Made in Russia' stamped on them?

Ron Wood · 09-20-2009, 11:26 AM

I am not real sure about this but I think only ex-military guns must be importer marked. So, a 1908 First Issue would have to be marked but a 1908 Commercial would not.

PhilOhio · 09-21-2009, 12:37 PM

Ron, if you are talking about current rules, the firearm (any firearm, not just ex-military) must have markings indicating both country of origin and importer. In bygone years, requirements have varied or been nonexistent. But in most cases, the exporting country required its name to appear, as with Germany. I guess they were rightly proud of what they made...as we once were.

...just looking at the SIG P-210 on my desk, vintage 1969...no importer marking of any kind, no country of origin stamped...just "SIG" enclosed in an oval and that wonderful Swiss cross, which says it all, or so they correctly thought.

Ice · 09-21-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Charlie, do the P08 and the Tokarev have 'Germany' or 'Russia' or 'Made in Germany' or 'Made in Russia' stamped on them?

No, they only have the importer's name and city,state stamped on them; no country of origin stamped.

Charlie

Edward Tinker · 09-21-2009, 04:37 PM

From what I understand, if "privately" imported )and these can only be commeriical firearms), they do not require an import stamp; a private individual can do this, it just takes lots of paperwork and effort.

Aaron · 09-21-2009, 10:43 PM

Please refer to the "Old Owner's Corner" under "Aaron" to see my 1914 DWM stamped "Germany."

sheepherder · 09-22-2009, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron

Please refer to the "Old Owner's Corner" under "Aaron" to see my 1914 DWM stamped "Germany."

...???...Is that somewhere on this Forum???

I don't think I've seen that subforum anywhere...

Ice · 09-22-2009, 08:47 AM

"Old Owner's Corner" is to the left of your screen - white letters on black background. Or, you can get to it here:

http://www.lugerforum.com/lugerowner2.html

Charlie

sheepherder · 09-22-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ice

"Old Owner's Corner" is to the left of your screen - white letters on black background.

There is nothing anywhere on my screen that says that or anything like it...is that some perk that contributing members get???

Ron Wood · 09-22-2009, 05:52 PM

Rich,
No, it has nothing to do with contributing members. It is all in how you arrive at the LugerForum site. Probably you have bookmarked a direct link to this "Message Board" part of the forum. If you go to http://www.lugerforum.com/ you will see the sidebar with all the other features of the home site.

sheepherder · 09-22-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Rich,
No, it has nothing to do with contributing members. It is all in how you arrive at the LugerForum site. Probably you have bookmarked a direct link to this "Message Board" part of the forum. If you go to http://www.lugerforum.com/ you will see the sidebar with all the other features of the home site.

Oh wow!!! I've never visited that page...or any of the others...

I don't recall how I got to these here Forums...a link from somewhere...but I never went to that page...

Thanks!

PhilOhio · 09-23-2009, 10:42 AM

Charlie,

Just adding to what you said, regarding whether or not we see a country of origin marking, I think it depends upon when the firearm was brought into this country and how.

It's true that BATFE only requires importer markings. But they are not the sole regulator of such things. Another branch of our government (Customs or Commerce?) requires country of origin markings on all commercially imported products for resale, as I understand it. But this may only apply to newly manufactured items, or made after a certain date of legislation, perhaps. Firearms are not excluded. Check any recently manufactured firearm, if it was made abroad. And also check anything at all, if it was imported.

I guess mostly we will see "Made in China" these days.

As for old Lugers, you will see "Germany" if it was made for commercial export. And maybe that was only a German requirement, from what government or industry entity I do not know.

Some countries, such as Japan, have had an early history of trashy exports tarnishing their image. So they established a rigid national export quality control and inspection program run by their Ministry of Trade and Industry, MITI. If it doesn't pass muster, it is not exported. I don't know whether Germany ever did such a thing, but it's a great idea. Too bad we don't do it in the U.S.

As Ed notes, none of this gun defacing baloney applies if you import it privately, not for resale.

09-18-2009, 10:30 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	no one knows the reason. If a new manufacturer by DWM I beleive it was stamped by them. if a WW1, refurb, etc, then it could have been applied by anyone, in Germany, not here. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-19-2009, 12:44 AM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	This is one explanation that I saw on the forum: Commercial Lugers exported to the US, had GERMANY stamped on them. This is in accordance with US law, that all items imported must have the country of origin on it. Since the Luger was already stamped, the mag that was in it didn't need the stamp. Replacement or second mags had to have the stamp. I beleive the only commercial Lugers that were sold with extra mags as a packaged deal, were the cased sets. Any other combination of a Luger and accessories were purchased seperately. GERMANY or MADE IN GERMANY stamps can be found on many different places on Alphabet commercials. Some are even stamped upside down. These are all export stamps. Import stamps are usually the name or logo of the importer. __________________ Mike C. Last edited by MFC; 09-19-2009 at 02:15 AM.

09-20-2009, 11:26 AM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I am not real sure about this but I think only ex-military guns must be importer marked. So, a 1908 First Issue would have to be marked but a 1908 Commercial would not. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-22-2009, 05:52 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Rich, No, it has nothing to do with contributing members. It is all in how you arrive at the LugerForum site. Probably you have bookmarked a direct link to this "Message Board" part of the forum. If you go to http://www.lugerforum.com/ you will see the sidebar with all the other features of the home site. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-19-2009, 12:01 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,045 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,943 Times in 1,196 Posts	Until around 1969, surplus guns could be imported with ease and they were marked according to the US import laws, with the country of origin (which sometimes was played with a bit, like the 'made in Switzerland A&F lugers'. After 1969, there was a ban on the import of surplus weapons, but I believe that those that qualified as a C&R did not have to be stamped with the country of origin. Can someone confirm this?

09-19-2009, 06:22 PM	#7
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	I have both a Luger shooter and a 1943 Tokarev TT333 that are marked with importer stamps so I think that even C&R have to be marked. Charlie

09-21-2009, 12:37 PM	#11
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Ron, if you are talking about current rules, the firearm (any firearm, not just ex-military) must have markings indicating both country of origin and importer. In bygone years, requirements have varied or been nonexistent. But in most cases, the exporting country required its name to appear, as with Germany. I guess they were rightly proud of what they made...as we once were. ...just looking at the SIG P-210 on my desk, vintage 1969...no importer marking of any kind, no country of origin stamped...just "SIG" enclosed in an oval and that wonderful Swiss cross, which says it all, or so they correctly thought.

09-21-2009, 04:37 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	From what I understand, if "privately" imported )and these can only be commeriical firearms), they do not require an import stamp; a private individual can do this, it just takes lots of paperwork and effort.

09-21-2009, 10:43 PM	#14
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Please refer to the "Old Owner's Corner" under "Aaron" to see my 1914 DWM stamped "Germany."

09-22-2009, 08:47 AM	#16
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	"Old Owner's Corner" is to the left of your screen - white letters on black background. Or, you can get to it here: http://www.lugerforum.com/lugerowner2.html Charlie

09-23-2009, 10:42 AM	#20
PhilOhio User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 145 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts	Charlie, Just adding to what you said, regarding whether or not we see a country of origin marking, I think it depends upon when the firearm was brought into this country and how. It's true that BATFE only requires importer markings. But they are not the sole regulator of such things. Another branch of our government (Customs or Commerce?) requires country of origin markings on all commercially imported products for resale, as I understand it. But this may only apply to newly manufactured items, or made after a certain date of legislation, perhaps. Firearms are not excluded. Check any recently manufactured firearm, if it was made abroad. And also check anything at all, if it was imported. I guess mostly we will see "Made in China" these days. As for old Lugers, you will see "Germany" if it was made for commercial export. And maybe that was only a German requirement, from what government or industry entity I do not know. Some countries, such as Japan, have had an early history of trashy exports tarnishing their image. So they established a rigid national export quality control and inspection program run by their Ministry of Trade and Industry, MITI. If it doesn't pass muster, it is not exported. I don't know whether Germany ever did such a thing, but it's a great idea. Too bad we don't do it in the U.S. As Ed notes, none of this gun defacing baloney applies if you import it privately, not for resale.