Class III weapons

[PhilOhio]

Pistol Whipped,

Your concern about shooting a postwar Stoeger Luger because it is increasing in value made me smile. That's because most of us who own original registered Thompson submachineguns have been through the same thing in recent years. We've gone through the same conflict, as values and perceptions of the guns we own change.

Some of us paid a few hundred dollars for fine quality originals. We shot them regularly. Why not? It's fun.

After the NFA Registry was closed to new registrations in 1986, values slipped up to the $3K to $5K range rather rapidly. Some of us were not sure what to do, and the guns did not get shot as much. Golly, you might break an original extractor or something.

When things passed the $10K level, some fellas stopped shooting entirely and their Thompsons became safe queens. No fun in that. And the owners were in constant fear of theft or natural disaster.

When it passed the $15K level 5 - 10 years ago, it got scary. I didn't shoot mine much. Nor did others.

Then 4 - 5 years ago, we hit $20K to $25K for a WW-II Thompson and $30K to $35K for an early pre-war original Colt Thompson. The guys got really serious about their guns. It wasn't just about fun anymore.

Then after awhile, an overheated market stabilized. People had more time to think about it, and most voted for having fun again. Everybody was in the same boat. The two major Thompson collectors groups get together for annual shoots and competitions, and many are held at other times during the year. Almost nobody is terminally anal retentive about their Tommies anymore...some have five or more...and they shoot them a lot or a little. That's what they were designed for, as was the Luger.

Is the Luger something unique and different, to be treated in some other way? No. And compared to a Thompson, or a $40 - $50K MG-34 or MG-42, the Luger is an inexpensive fun gun. It's a matter of perspective. The average Luger, not just those referred to as "shooters", should be shot occasionally, given the best of care, not abused, fed only good ammo (I like lead bullets because they cause virtually no bore wear), and thoughtfully stored. But nobody should, in my opinion, obsess over the typical good quality original pre-1946 Luger.

Are there exceptions? You bet. Top collectors/authors on this board know what they are. These may be exceptional because of rarity, originality of condition, historical provenance (got one of those), or for other reasons. I, personally, would not shoot one in that category. But some may, and it might be O.K. now and then.

This is my personal opinion, and I know many highly respected collectors might disagree. But I think we should be careful not to go overboard in what can easily drift into the worship of "things", any kind of things. Original Lugers are now historical artifacts, no longer just wartime souvenirs. We are their temporary custodians, like the G.I.s who brought them back. But I reserve the right to actually, and carefully, fire two of the three I own, for awhile at least, to make the historical flavor a little bit more real to me. And I would never do anything likely to risk damaging them or contributing to significant wear, especially bore wear.

[alanint]

The only caveat I would add is that original Thompsons have three basic parts that are serial matched; The upper receiver , the lower receiver and occasionally a drum as well.
None of these parts are prone to breakage as are the very small serial numbered parts on a Luger. An original Thompson extractor, ejector or what-have-you are not cheap, but they can be had and any original part will "match" the gun. Not so on the Luger. Once a serial numbered part on a Luger is broken, a substancial percentage of the gun's market value is lost. A Thompson small part represents a very small fraction of the gun's worth and if original, will restore the gun to all- matching status.

[PhilOhio]

Alanint, guys,

Yes, there are a few minor differences in how one might approach the "to shoot" or "not to shoot" question on Lugers vs. Thompsons.

With a Luger, the numbered extractor and firing pin seem to be the most significant. I guess if I were going to shoot a serious collector grade one (which I would not), I would do so with replacements, as some of you do. Having not fired thousands of rounds through Lugers, I can't estimate the risk, although I have read here that extractor and firing pin breakage is extremely uncommon. Still, uncommon is not the same as zero. I'm impressed with how ruggedly the extractor is designed.

One caveat for all of you. Unless you want to break matching numbered parts, stay far, far away from steel cased 9mm ammo, such as that from Wolf. However you assess the technical explanation, its use leads to a dramatically higher breakage rate with several small parts, such as extractors; and sometimes part of the bolt face. This has been very true with Thompsons, based upon quite a sampling of user experience. The stuff has even broken Sten extractors and bolt parts, which is quite an accomplishment.

Regarding Thompsons, most ex-military Thompsons do not have matching numbered lower grip frames, as these were frequently switched during depot level maintenance or arsenal rebuild. With the early Colts, the upper and lower should match, plus, there is a little known number on the rarely seen rear face of the barrel. So a replacement 1928 barrel will not match an original 1921 Colt Thompson; nor will a "swapped" original 1921 barrel...on the very remote chance you can find one. And it would run well into five figures.

The type of ejector used on early Colt Thompsons cannot be had as a replacement, even though it is not numbered. Expensive repros have been made, but they are not the same. And there are no Colt Thompsons to cannibalize. But since WW-II and later ejectors fit, most Colt users do what Luger shooters do; take out the original and shoot with a common WW-II ejector.

Thompson drums were never serially matched to guns. Early Colt pre-war "L" (50-rd.) drums, made under contract to Colt or Auto Ordnance, were serial numbered on the body and cover, but they were never matched to any 1921 Thompson. The same was true of the "C" (100-rd.) drums.

[Pistol Whipped]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Phil, A very thoughtful reply...

Whipped, Nice pistol...It has aftermarket grips.

Jerry Burney

Thompsons...MG 34s...MG42s...I can only dream of something like that. I would love to get my hands on a Thompson, but first I have to get a class 3. Something I'm planning for the future unfortunately I think I got into the collecting thing a little late, prices now are in the stratospheric range. Everything on the commercial Luger I purchased is original except the magazine and I had figured the grips were replacements, they were just too good for original.

[alvin]

Not a full auto guy. But looks like "registration" being the most important factor in them, nothing else really important. The price tag is political.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[alanint]

Pistol Whipped,

You don't need a class three license to own full auto weapons. You can purchase a full auto through a corporation or a trust, which is the latest craze, (that is assuming you don't live in a lib machine gun prohibited state)
A fully transferrable West Hurley Auto Ordnance 1928 select fire Thompson can be had for a little over $10K, not cheap, (considering I bought my example for $1,200!) but still reachable for most folks. Not a Colt, but adequate fun for most people.
Fully transferrable MG34 and 42s are up in the low $30Ks, which is high by my standards at least.
S&W Model 76s, MACs, Stens, converted FNCs, M2 Carbines, UZIs and others are all around the $6K area or under.

[alvin]

alanint - How much is MP18 on today's market? TIA

[PhilOhio]

Guys,

Just FYI, since even most shooters don't understand this...

There is no "license" required to purchase or own any full auto firearm.

You must live in a state which allows it. Most do.

You must have a clean record and pass an FBI check.

You must be photographed, fingerprinted, and submit to ATF an application for transfer of the gun to you, and that gun has to have been entered into their national registry prior to a cutoff date in 1986, when the prohibitionists got the registry "closed" (for now, at least).

When submitting the application with prints and photo, you also pay for a $200 transfer tax stamp and wait for approval. That used to take six months or so. Now it takes a couple weeks.

There is no additional annual fee, etc.

Some states have additional registration requirements and some don't. Mine, Ohio, doesn't; except that you must have it registered with ATF.

Most people think you simply cannot have a "machine gun". Not true.

And by the way, the same rules apply to suppressors, "silencers", except that they can still be manufactured and registered. MANY thousands are being made and sold each year, with the number rising annually. With some difficulty, such a legal sound reducer can be fitted to a Luger, although it is more difficult to make a reliable semiauto pistol where the action is of the locked breech, short recoil type.

This is quite an interesting subject, and some of you might want to check this website focused on nothing else.
http://www.silencerresearch.com/index.htm

[alanint]

Phil,

You did not point out the biggest stumbling block with the "normal" transfer process, which you described.
This process requires a law enforcement signature. In a place like rural Ohio this may not be an issue but many people who have tried to obtain a title 2 weapon using this process tend to find that their police chief or chief law enforcement officer for their area will refuse to sign. Most LEOs see signing as political suicide. This is especially true in most urban areas. No signature-no transfer.
This is why most people have taken the corporation or trust route. No fingerprints, no photographs, just a background check on the person and the legal status of the corporation or trust. Most important, no interference from local LEO. They are not involved in the process at all.
To answer Alvin's question, MP18s are fairly rare. Most have been converted to MP28 configuration, since trommel magazines are fairly rare and a typical P08 mag does not last long on full auto. The last MP18 I saw was priced around $14-15. You can still find MG08/15s for that price!
Check websites like Subguns.com and Sturmgewehr.com regularly until one comes up. If you seriously want to buy I can put word out on my net and probably locate one for you.

[PhilOhio]

Alanint is right about the CLEO signature being a problem in many places. I was hesitant to bore everybody by going into non-Luger detail on that one. A few years back, the firearms prohibitionists added this minor roadblock to the law, in an obvious attempt to give regional anti-gun politician cops an arbitrary tool to sandbag law abiding would-be Class III purchasers even in states permitting it.

The good people of one state, Tennessee or Kentucky as I recall, fixed that by passing another law saying the chief law enforcement official WILL sign the form unless he has specific reason why the purchase should be blocked.

And if you run into one of these politician cops, you have lots of alternatives besides going the corporation or trust route. If you live in town, you may first go to the chief of police. If he balks, you are allowed to go to the next level, which is EITHER your county sheriff or a judge. If they give you the bums rush, you can eventually go to the state attorney general. I.e., you work your way up through the CLEO chain of command, so to speak. Few have to carry it that far.

It's a bit difficult for a local or state official to explain why a law abiding adult citizen who can pass a rigid FBI investigation cannot be trusted to own a restricted firearm or controlled item such as a sound suppressor. Years ago I was idly talking with some ATF people in the metropolitan Washington area, when I lived and worked there. They openly scoffed at some of this prohibitionist legislation, which merely clogs up their system; most of them are gun people, too. They said they never ever have problems with people who make the effort to follow the rules. Why harrass them?

...which is what we all know and say to each other.

(Matter of fact, the time of that discussion was when I was moving out of the D.C. area, back to hometown Ohio, and there was an hours long delay at ATF headquarters, where I needed to get an interstate transport permit for a couple machineguns signed. Seems they had lost all the registration paperwork, and the hunt took a long time. ...which, it turns out, was quite common in the '80s and early '90s, before computerized records systems were instituted and debugged.)

[Pistol Whipped]

This is great information; getting a Class -III has been on my plate for a while now. The CLEO was the one aspect of getting a Class-III that has always concerned me. I live in a small town just about 20 miles south of Austin, Texas and I really donâ??t know what my local CLEO attitude toward this would be. But Iâ??m the sort of person who always likes to have a plan â??Bâ?� that can be quickly enacted if my first approach fails. I was considering the lawyer route but doing the chain-of-command thing is something I had not considered, thanks!

[alanint]

Do you have a corporation? If, not, a trust is simple to set up. The guns are then bought in the corporation or trust's name. No fingerprints, no photographs and no LEO approval needed.
The only downside to the corporate route is the yearly filling fee and if you decide to drop the corp. you will then need a CLEO approval to transfer the guns to you as an individual versus a corporate entity. Not so the trust, which is perpetual.
The chain of command route rarely works. If your friendly neighborhood CLEO won't sign, it is very unlikely his bosses will. It has been shown in the past that internal memos have been circulated making it verboten to sign for anybody.
Approach your CLEO prior to purchasing anything and get their take on whether they will sign, (a verbal assurance does not guarranty a signature when the time comes!) . A Texas CLEO is more likely to sign than most. Or better, find a local Class 3 and ask them if the local CLEO is signing, (he must be the CLEO of the jurisdiction where you live). They will surely know.
I can probably help you with a class 3 near Austin when you decide on a serious purchase.

[Pistol Whipped]

No, I donâ??t have a corporation but the trust angle is of interest. Also Alanint, I would like to take you up on your offer for assistance. Getting my Class-III is not something Iâ??m going to run out and do first thing tomorrow but I would like to follow up with you in the near future. It is something I want to do. I see no legal reason why I could not.

[alanint]

That's right. The first full auto is always the hardest. Once you understand the system, the rest follow easely. Although prices have shot up in recent years,(mostly due to people's realization that they CAN own full autos) the market has stabilized and actually depressed some these past few months. This is the time to buy within the context of current prices.
I can get you in touch with a knowledgable and trust worthy class 3 dealer in your general area who would help you out from there.
Just let me know.

[Pistol Whipped]

Yes, please. I would like to get in touch and follow through. Knowing who to turn to in my area is a big help. I can be reached at: argo1331@yahoo.com. Also, I've heard that once you have a Class-III you pretty much have invited the BATF to pay you an unannouced visit whenever the spirit moves them. I'ld really hate for them to show up some morning and I'm standing there half asleep in my bathrobe and now they want to inspect my guns.

[alanint]

That's a ridiculous wive's tale that has circulated for years. I have had over 15 class 3 items for more than 10 years and have never even gotten a call from ATF, much less a visit.
Unless you have a meth lab in your basement local LEOs just found out about or other similar scenario you will NEVER be bothered by an ATF visit. They only visit licensees for compliance checks, never individuals.
What's more, say you get stopped in a traffic incident and the arresting officer finds you have title 2 items in your trunk. They can call ATF if they want to but ATF will reveal NOTHING to them other than to state, "we have no interest in prosecuting Mr. so-and-so" To reveal anything about your collection or you is revealing priviledged tax information, which is illegal for ATF to release. This is why I carry copies of my Form 4s for each gun when I travel, as a courtesy for the officer who may have stopped me, not as a requirement. The copies are merely to show that the guns are legal. I am under no obligation to show an LEO anything concerning the weapons if I choose not to. I just weight the certainty that an officer will panic and call backup, take me downtown until the guns can be proved to be mine and legal versus settling that point on the spot.
I have a friend who showed paperwork in a similar minor traffic incident and the officer wanted to confiscate the guns anyway. My friend phoned ATF on the spot and explained the situation then handed the phone to the LEO. The LEO was told by ATF that he could be charged with stealing a registered title 2 weapon if he had no other grounds for confiscation!!
The short story is that you have nothing to worry about as long as you stay on the right side of the law in all respects.

[jamese]

Alanint,
Nice story, but in the State of Florida you would be hard pressed to charge a LEO with theft, if he or she was seizing the guns for further investigation and the officer can articulate the facts as such. I think wise to carry a copy of Form 4 with you and this "COURTESY" you speak of, avoids a lot a issues and hassles from the initial contact.

Jim

(30+ years on the job and counting )

[alanint]

Still, a factual story. Form 4s were produced. All courtesy was shown. In this circumstance the officer had NO reasonable cause to remove the weapons. Removing the guns without sufficient probable cause would leave the officer in illegal possesion of title 2 weapons.
If my guns were taken after I had willingly identified them as registered an legal and there was no reasonable cause for removal I would inmediately report them as stolen to ATF and local LE. and I would name the perpetrator.

[PhilOhio]

As Alanint suggested, Class III firearm ownership does not open you to ANY level of premises inspection different than that arising from ordinary firearms ownership. And that is zero inspection without probable cause. In my case, the issue has not even arisen in 40 years.

As for refused CLEO signatures, I'm not an advocate of going the trust or corporate routes. One area man did so (already had a corporation for his business), and all went fine, until a few years later when he had to dissolve the corporation, in the course of selling the business, and he wanted to transfer his corporation owned SMG to himself. The local antigun sheriff fought him tooth and nail, again refusing to sign and trying to block alternate signatures. I believe the sheriff eventually lost that one.

It is not a foregone conclusion that in all jurisdictions and in all states, if the lowest guy on the totem pole will not sign, collusion will dictate that nobody else will sign either. It doesn't work that way everywhere, although it might at the first local step or two.

There's a more important and unadvertised consideration. ATF (now under Department of Justice) seems not to be at all comfortable with the constitutionality of the CLEO signature requirement. They do not like to see one of these local podunkville arbitrary turn-downs directed against the law abiding resident of a state allowing private Class III ownership. It is very clear that they don't want to see a legal challenge pressed very far, as a loss could throw the whole thing out; looks like they want to see it continue to be used selectively. To try to head off a constitutional confrontation, several years ago at one of our annual collector meetings, they sent two representatives who discussed the issue. They said if you are ever blocked by one of these signature refusers, telephone a certain named individual at ATF headquarters, who was qualified and authorized to deal with the problem and make it go away. They were a bit evasive about how that would work, by persuasion or by waiving the requirement on a case-by-case basis. But it was clear that they wanted us to understand that a firm local "no" did not necessarily mean a binding "no".

So the thought I would leave you with is that if your clean record qualifies you to own one of these restricted items in a state which allows it, and your local defender of his biased personal whim says you can't, and that's that, he is mistaken. If you know where to go to overrule him, you can, with ATF's help, and without lawyers or the filing of corporation papers.

Of course, my information is from before the Obamanables took over, and I have no way of knowing the extent to which they may have further politicized ATF in the last six months. And with a vehemently anti-firearms left wing attorney general running Justice, it may have gone pretty far.

If that turns out to be true, then there's the corporate route, until Obama issues an Executive Order decreeing that, since all corporations and capitalists are basically evil, as Karl Marx has taught us, new U.S. corporations may not be formed after a certain cutoff date. Or maybe I shouldn't be joking about that.