P.J. -- A few questions regarding MG

[alvin]

P.J. -- I have a few questions regarding MG. On *federal* level, if a MG was pre-1968 registered, can anyone buy it (is it just like acquiring a semi-auto, plus $200 transferring tax?) Is there any other ATF regulation restriction?

Some MGs are marked as "dealer samples".... I assume those are post-1968 and pre-1986, or post-1986, and SOT required on the federal level? The delta between pre-1986 and post-1986.... I heard it's regarding "can or cannot keep the MG after giving up SOT".... not sure that's correct or not.

Which parts are registered in ATF...... I assume it's receiver or frame. But I heard even sear on some MG requests 5 digit $ these days. Why.... if it's not registered part?

Thanks in advance.

[alanint]

A few answers;

Any MG not purchased legally but registered during the 1968 amnesty are called just that: Amnesty guns. These were registered wiyhout paying the original registry tax, although all subsequent transfers require the tax. These guns are all fully transferrable, which means a qualified individual can own them after paying the $200 transfer tax. This is not as simple as it looks, as a law enforcement signature is required, which in most localities, is almost impossible to obtain. Most people circumvent this requirement by forming a corporation or living trust, which is a legal entity the guns may be transferred to, with no law enforcement signature required, (as long as your state allows MG ownership).

Guns that did not pay the transfer tax and were imported, manufactured or sold among class 3 dealers prior to May 19, 1986 are considered "Pre May Dealer Samples" and can only be owned by individuals holding a class 3 license. A dealer dropping his license may keep this inventory although I do not believe they may be transferred to their heirs.

"Post May' dealer samples are all guns imported, manufactured and registered after May 19, 1986. These can only be transferred from one class 2 or 3 dealer to another and only with a law enforcement or goverment letter requesting trial or demonstration of said weapon. If a class 2 or 3 drops their license, these must be transferred out of inventory to another dealer.

As far as what constitutes a machinegun. This is very complicated as ATF has convoluted the laws to fit different firearms. Some examples;
FN FAL- Upper receiver
M16- Lower receiver
MP5- If original, the receiver, if converted, the sear
Steyer AUG- The trigger pack
Browning 1919A4- The sideplate

Drilling a hole in the side of an M16 or AK where the sear goes-an illegal MG, whether there is a sear present or not.

ANY MG parts installed in an AR15 is an illegal MG, yet Colt continues to ship semi auto ARs with full auto bolt carriers in them.

Thousands of AKs, HK91s and 93s were shipped with full auto bolt carriers, but in these model guns-not a problem.

ATF once even tried to declare shoelaces anywhere near an M1 Garand an MG, once it was demonstrated you can make one go full auto by using one.

Sears command $14-15 thousand for MP5s only. The only other common registered sear on the market are for the FN CAL and they go for more like $4-$5,000.
The market value of a registered sear is based on the market value of a full auto version of the gun it is meant for, minus the value of a semi auto host weapon.
The registered sear, a 5 cent piece of metal, in most cases, is the "legal machinegun" as far as ATF is concerned.
An example;
Full auto registered "MP5" $18,000 +/-
Semi auto HK94 $4,000 +/-
Value of sear $14,000 +/-

I hope this has brought some light into a very complicated subject.

[Navy]

A minor clarification.
"Guns that did not pay the transfer tax and were imported, manufactured or sold among class 3 dealers prior to May 19, 1986 are considered "Pre May Dealer Samples" and can only be owned by individuals holding a class 3 license. "

There is no such lisence. To deal in machine guns, a Type 01 FFL must pay a "Special Occupational Tax (SOT)", which entitles the licensee to deal inter and intra state commerce in Title II weapons. Contrary to popular belief, there is no special license required.

Tom A
Former Special Occupational Taxpayer

[alanint]

This is correct. The SOT, or Special Occupational Tax, added to the Type 01 FFL, allows one to deal with MGs.

The "class 3" moniquer comes from the "form 3" documents used to transfer such weapons.
"Class 3" has crept into the vernacular of the trade but it is not strictly or legally accurate. (Like calling an MP40 a Schmeisser)

Thanks for keeping it accurate, Tom

[John Sabato]

There is also a type of registered sear that is used in standard semi-auto AR-15 type weapons. These are commonly called DIAS (Drop In Auto Sear) and Lightning Links...

The DIAS is a machined piece of hardware that can be assembled into a standard AR type gun that converts the host weapon to fire in full auto mode. The DIAS is considered the machine gun, not the host gun.



See this URL for a more complete explanation:

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/dias.html

The Lightning Link is a stamped and folded piece of sheet metal that when cleverly inserted into a standard AR also converts the host weapon into a machine gun.



Here is the URL for an excellent Lightning Link discussion.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/lightninglink.html

[alanint]

A quick explanation of the difference between the two conversion methods;

Drop-in auto sear, (DIAS) - Mimicks the original factory sear and requires all the factory MG parts, with the exception of the factory auto sear to be installed. The gun acts as an original factory full auto in that it is select fire.

Lightning Link- Simply drops into a standard AR15 and allows the gun to fire full auto ONLY. The gun uses all its original factory semi auto parts.
(there is a conversion of the selector out there that allows select fire, but these are rarely seem). The link works by using the back of the bolt carrier to trip the semi sear upon closure. Timing is everything with these as you will get light hammer strikes if not timed correctly.

The Lightning Link is the most common method of illegal conversion, as it is easy to manufacture in your garage. Many are made from old hacksaw blades. It is easy to open the gun, remove and toss far away should local law enforcement come upon you in the old rock pit. I'm not advocating this, as all my MGs are legal, but simply detailing the reality out there.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by John Sabato
There is also a type of registered sear that is used in standard semi-auto AR-15 type weapons. These are commonly called DIAS (Drop In Auto Sear) and Lightning Links...

John, not to be difficult my friend, but you offer a lot of advice against using a stock with a 4 inch luger; the advice, links and pictures you just showed will put a person into Fed Prison quicker than placing a stock on a 4 inch luger



Ed

[alanint]

To be fair to John, both DIAS and Lightning links exist in both registered, legal form and unregistered, illegal form.

As long as all this is for educational purposes!!

[Edward Tinker]

yes, I know, I was pulling John's chain because of the stock on a luger comment he always says, that its an easy jail sentance....

[John Sabato]

From the Lightning Link page:

Please understand that it is illegal for a US Citizen to build one of these units without special licenses and the purpose of this page is to discuss how the Lightning Link works and not to provide guidance on how to build one.

Ed, both of the pages that I linked to contain specific language regarding the legality or illegallity of various types of auto-sears... All National Firearms Act of 1934 (NFA) rules apply... the same rules that apply to using stocks with Lugers other than the models specifically exempted from NFA controls...

Consider my chain yanked... but not very hard

From the DIAS page

CONCLUSIONS

If you are considering buying an auto sear to convert your AR15 to a full automatic firearm, there is only one option - the registered & transferable DIAS. While it may be tempting to buy a pre-81 to save thousands over the registered sear, the risks are considerable. Possession of an unregistered machinegun (a pre-81 DIAS and an AR15 rifle...or possibly even just a so called â??pre-81â?� DIAS) is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison, and up to a $10,000 fine, and permanent loss of your right to ever own a gun or vote again. Numerous rumors have circulated that some of the people selling the pre-81 sears are actually BATF operations. Buyer beware.

[alvin]

Thanks everyone for excellent info. My original feeling was correct -- lots of hassle from ATF. My state law requires gun owners to report to local police "I am moving into your town" when we relocate (that has nothing to do MG). I assume not many ownerships enjoy this privilege

[P. J. Heck]

Alvin.........seems you got more answers that the 'law allows' before I even found the post!!! I can add little, except that there never was any ATF hassle for me. I have over 100 mgs here, mostly vintage stuff; form 3 & 4, C & Rs, class 2 mfgr. and samples. So I can say that I have kinda covered all the angles.

Can you clarify your comment (that has nothing to do MG) and 'I assume not many ownerships enjoy this priviledge'.????? .......... What state. by the way??????

[BogeyB]

Not to muddy the water; but how does having a MG declared a C & R, affect the transfer process??

Mike

[Lyn Islaub]

Another great day of education on the Forum. Thx to all that provided input on this subject as you answered many questions that I hadn't yet thought to ask.
Lyn

[alanint]

There is a process to have a PARTICULAR MG, (or ANY firearm, for that matter) declared a C&R. It must have a compeling history, be unique or otherwise remarkable to gain C&R status from ATF.
As the law stands now, any firearm made before 1946 is essentailly a C&R firearm. ANy firearm made after that date that meets the C&R criteria may be declared a C&R through a written request to ATF, which may or may not be accepted.
To be C&R the gun MUST be original in all respects, not remanufactrured and in the case of MGs, must have already been on the register. (what a shame for all the vets with MGs in their attics, who currently own contraband, rather than war trophies).
If your MG was made prior to 1946, and is registered, then it is ALREADY a C&R according to the ATF, although you might want to write ATF to have your particular gun officially declared a C&R and have it placed on the registry.
ALL C&R guns are fully transferrable by definition. You cannot register a Pre or Post May Dealer's sample as a C&R

Having the gun declared C&R has several advantages;

If you have a C&R license you may then have a C&R MG shipped directly to you, without going through an FFL/SOT, although you will still need a law enforcement signature for the transfer, (or not, if you have a corporation or trust and the C&R license is in the name of that same corporation or trust).

The C&R gun is worth more, as there are several states, (among them CT and MI, if I recall?) that are C&R ONLY and collectors and shooters in these states pay a premium for any C&R gun
C&R MP40 - $12-14 thousand
Remanufactured MP40 "Tube" gun - $8-9 Thousand
C&R guns are worth more also because they are as originally produced by the factory, not altered or messed with, at least in theory.

Those are the main tenets of C&R firearms

[alvin]

Trying to build up my life in Massachusetts. The commonwealth puts firearms under strict control, law abiding gun owners must be licensed, reports to police when they relocate, AWB still alive, etc, etc. For those licenses that I've seen so far, cover from pepper sprayer to semi-automatic, but *none* of them covers MG. I heard rumor saying there is a special MG license, so called 'green card'? (regular licenses are white plastic cards), but I've never seen one. Any information is greatly appreciated!

[alanint]

Alvin,

The only recommendation I can give you is to move to a free state. The nearest state with any vestage of the original, real United States to you is Pennsylvania.
If you are a recent immigrant to the US you picked one of the worst places in the US when it comes to general, personal freedoms.

No personal offence to MA dwellers, but it's the truth. Practically the entire Northeast has become a liberal bastion where you are over regulated, over taxed, over monitored and generally protected from yourself.

I did a lot of growing up in New Jersey, after leaving Mexico and as I grew older I realized that the state ran counter to my interests and aspirations. I couln't wait to get out.

I now live in the much freer state of Florida. Where I pay no state income tax, have my MG and gun collection, a permit to carry a firearm for my protection and can ride my motorcycle year-round with no helmet, if I choose, among many other things.

If you are not seriously tied to the state of MA for any reason, my earnest recommendation is to move out (mostly to the South) as soon as you can.

[BogeyB]

I currently hold a C & R. So, if I found a papered C & R MG, I wouldn't have to fill out the ATFE paperwork and pay the transfer tax??

Mike

[alanint]

You still fill out the paperwork and you still pay the transfer tax, the only difference is that if the gun is outside your state, the gun can be shipped directly to you, it does not have to go through an FFL/SOT, who will charge you a transfer fee.
If the gun is in your state, you can purchase it directly from the owner whether you have a C&R or not, and do not have to go through an FFL/SOT, as long as the paperwork is approved.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by alanint
...
As the law stands now, any firearm made before 1946 is essentailly a C&R firearm. ANy firearm made after that date that meets the C&R criteria may be declared a C&R through a written request to ATF, which may or may not be accepted.

Actually, it is 50 years old, so 1958....


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm

Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATFâ??s C&R list.

Ed