New guy, What do I have.

[mjones]

Hello,

New guy here. My area of knowlege is with K98ks and sniper variants and a little with P38s. What exactly do I have. It has very little of anything on it.

[mjones]

[mjones]

Any ideas on this one?

[Edward Tinker]

pictures are great, but tell us of any markings; serial number to include suffix...

Any Crown N's on it?

I am unsure if the 42 on the bottom of the sideplate is a 42 replacement number or a mismatch.

The blank toggle can mean it is a rework or it can be what used to be called a "sneak".


Ed

[mjones]

Ed,

Thanks for looking. There is a faint mark under the barrel that I can't identify. It looks similar to part of a RZM mark. I took the pic showing the 42 and there is also a 33 on the bottom of the take down button that doesn't match. It is possible that the top was scrubbed. I don't know anything about its history it came from an estate sale. I don't see any crown ns. Not sure what you mean by a 'sneak'. I bought it cheap and plan on shooting it. Any idea of year?

Mike

[Edward Tinker]

You can do a search on sneak, as there are conflicting ideas on it. It was most likely made around 1930-1932...



Ed

[lfid]

Mike

may be a 1908 Bulgarian schrubbed

if so , frame will show no signs of lanyard loop removal or welded lanyard recess at rear of frame - and also no evidence of stock lug removal

should have extra hole thru frame under grips near mag well opening in frame that once had the lanyard ring

nice example , congratulations

Bill

[Dwight Gruber]

Mike,

It appears that you have a "sanitized" 1908 Bulgarian. Go to this discussion http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...garian+AND+P08 to see how the gun was originally marked. Note that these guns are unique in that they do not have a lanyard staple on the rear frame; if you remove one of the grips you should find a hole drilled through the rear grip strap at the bottom for a lanyard ring. Also check to see if the extractor is stamped on the side with Cyrillic characters.

These guns are more often found in the same condition as yours, rather than fully marked like the example noted above. Conventional wisdom has it that upon importation these guns were 'scrubbed' of the markings which would identify their source as a proscribed Eastern bloc nation.

--Dwight

[mjones]

Thank you all,

It appears to be a Bulgarian P08. The hole is under the grip for the lanyard ring and there is Cyrillic characters on the left side of the extractor. I would guess the holster is incorrect. Any idea of year of production? Any value to this or is it a shooter as I expected?

Mike

[lfid]

Mike,

I have seen these sell for between $650 and $800 in last year as shooters or low level collectible

in case you decide to sell it at some point - no rush ,
I can offer $800 for this one , given the typical 3 day no fire inspection with return privileges

thanks
Bill

[mjones]

Bill,

I will keep that in mind.

One other question I have is caliber. I assumed it was 9mm and not a 30.

I haven't inspected or measured the bore and chamber.

Would that be true of all Bulgarian P08s?

[lfid]

Mike ,

very likely 9mm , contour of barrel looks like typical 9mm , so an 8mm bullet should fit loosely in the front of barrel and not fit all way into a 7.65mm ( 30 )

another way is to look into barrel from breech end - if chamber has straight wall into bore than is a 9mm

I dont think there were any original 30 cal 1908 bulgarians and if any would likely have the longer barrel ~ 4.75 inches

lugers at random book lists total of 10,000 made serials range of 1-5000 and 1C-5000C

the cascading flow of the serials on the receiver/slide seem to be typical of the loose hand restamping done when these were reblued

I havent seen any specific dates identified but likely 1908-14 timeframe

not sure why the slide overhangs the front of frame on your gun - looks like more than usual tolerance - does serial under barrel on front of frame look evenly stamped and small font ? ie - does frame look like metal removed in this serial area ?

holster looks like may have been the surplus "good" offered with these when imported

enjoy
Bill

[Steinar]

Originally posted by lfid
..should have extra hole thru frame under grips near mag well opening in frame that once had the lanyard ring

Please explain.. sounds like the hole after a magazine safety

mjones; the luger seems to be slightly 'out of battery', the upper is not aligned up with the frame. Is there a serial number in front of the frame?

(btw. If you need some K98 parts for your second interest, I'm currently trying to sell out what I have extra)

[Vlim]

These Bulgarian reworks can roughly be categorized into 2 different ranges. A part of the guns (the worst ones) were bought by the German company who were also responsible for the Erma products. They reproduced small parts and barrels and refurbished a number of these guns. Since they were refurbished in Germany, they'd have German 1960s or 1970s commercial proof marks.

The other batch was bought by Interarms who sold a small quantity of guns in original configuration to US collectors. They reworked the rest in order to hide/obscure the fact that these guns came from an Eastern Block country. They got an import permit by stating that the guns were of German origin (which they were, in a way) but didn't mention that the guns were bought from an Eastern Block country.

@Steinar: The lanyard hole is located at the very end (heel) of the grip area of the frame, just behind the round cut-out for that clears the magazine bottom.

[Steinar]

Gerben, I learned something new then Lanyard loop hole.. after a search I found this picture posted by Dwight http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/bulgardemo.jpg

[mjones]

Thanks again. What a wealth of knowledge.

Et Al,

It is a 9mm. The serial number font on the barrel is smaller and perfectly aligned. I'll need to look at the frame for signs material removal in the area of the serial #. I am assuming that you are referring the re-furbisher may have installed a slide from a different pistol and re-serialed it to match causing the fitment issue. The top of the pistol appears to be ground, polished, and re-blued professionally. It is slightly dished out towards the most center points where the Bulgarian stampings once were.

One other thing I didn't mention was that the mags are strangely numbered. The numbers from memory are something like 4131 with a 1 below and 3141 with a 2 below. Maybe they were stamped or re-stamped by a dyslexic person or just matched as close as possible. The main serial # on the gun is 1341.

I would guess this may be a sanitized Interarms import as pointed out by G. van Vlimmeren and for me a shooter. At the price I paid I couldn't go wrong.

Thanks again for your input and history lesson. I think I have the bug and will be in search of a nice WW2 vintage P08 in the future. I always assumed they were way out of my price range and stayed with P38s. I guess I'll have to buy all the books and study like I did when I started out with K98ks.

(Morgan Kane, do you have a list of parts and prices for your K98 parts?)

Mike

[Steinar]

mjones; I sent you a PM about the parts

[lfid]

http://www.landofborchardt.com/bulgarian.html#a2

some nice pictures of the unschrubbed

maybe the sideplate locking bolt is the reason for the slide overhang at front - it looks like internal part of the bolt may tilt toward front of the gun and thus allow slide forward a bit - checked button on bolt looks higher rotation than normal

Bill

[mjones]

Bill,

Thanks for the link.

The serial # I mentioned under the barrel is actually on the face of the lower frame. It certainly appears to be put together with a different upper.

Mike

[lfid]

Mike,

my guess is that when they schrubbed these they polished serials off of the barrels and maybe also the uppers - but kept the frame serials as that was needed to show trackable in firearms sales

so on reassembly they could no longer match them up - likely did not do basket of parts control per gun

does the sideplate match the frame ? lock bolt ? safety lever / sear block ?
sideplate may have an inner serial also

does yours show any ghost of the center toggle link lion in shield or dwm over the chamber ?

Bill