During our Armys Test Of Goerge Luger's 45

cirelaw · 12-12-2007, 12:27 PM

did George suppy German DWM 45 rounds, or did he depend upon our domestic 45 rounds used by colt??I have an original box of the earlier dwn test ammo. Eric, Esq

Edward Tinker · 12-12-2007, 12:36 PM

I think this is covered in the book by Reese. If memory serves me correct, Frankfort arsenal (US arsenal) was supposed to supply them with ammo so they could test in germany, and were late and then did not work right, so DWM made their own. I am 95% sure that ammo was supplied by the USA gov't for the trials.

Ed

policeluger · 12-12-2007, 12:57 PM

A functionally correct .45 cal ammo was provided by DWM, US 45acp did not function well in the test guns, and it stands to reason that the only ammo available when building the guns was DWM's so perhaps the test guns were built to their own ammo....

Pete Ebbink · 12-12-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

A functionally correct .45 cal ammo was provided by DWM, US 45acp did not function well in the test guns, and it stands to reason that the only ammo available when building the guns was DWM's so perhaps the test guns were built to their own ammo....

More modern-day .45 ACP ammo was shot through the Norton .45 Luger pistol by the Harry Jones family in the 1960's. REM-UMC ammo. Mike Jones of kind enough to "gift" me one of the spent brass casings. One of 150 casings known to exist.

cirelaw · 12-13-2007, 08:18 AM

It makes sense that the ammo tested would be the same us ammo to be used in the field. Since I started researching the topic, I amazed how many types, loads, weight, proportions there were. I trying to find a picture of the early navy 9mm, Its seem anything labeled Navy is not only rare but super expensive!

cirelaw · 12-13-2007, 12:43 PM

Ed You are truly the 'Luger rennasance' man, your God given hard drive given you, continues to astound me. What I respect it that you give your opinion, based on your education, both taught and absorbed. Whas there ever a luger inquiry that ever stumped you? Luv ya eric

thegundude · 12-13-2007, 01:28 PM

Posted at Eric's request...

Vlim · 12-13-2007, 01:51 PM

Hi,

DWM (and Luger) found that the .45 ACP supplied by the Frankford Arsenal was loaded inconsistently and produced vastly different pressures making it difficult to fine-tune the Luger's lockwork.

As a gobetween, DWM/Luger reverted to creating their own .45 ACP ammunition so that the pressure curve was somewhat more consistent during testing.

The 1907 trail reports mention the fact that Luger brought his own ammunition and it noted that one of the reasons not to choose the Luger was because 'The powder needed for the Luger ammunition is not now obtainable in the USA'.

cirelaw · 12-13-2007, 02:19 PM

Thank you so much for posting my holster, There are wear marks and indentation marking that line up perfectively with the test luger,

cirelaw · 12-13-2007, 03:08 PM

Thank You our dear friend in Belgium. You know more about a luger tested in our country than any of us!

Ron Wood · 12-14-2007, 12:03 AM

The booklet is an original copy of the 1907 test trials report...a little worse for wear but complete and original. The Luger is a Krause replica of the .45 Luger so not original (but a good fake!)

cirelaw · 12-14-2007, 07:34 AM

RON RULES!!!

cirelaw · 12-14-2007, 08:00 AM

Do you know if such instructive booklets were printed for the 1000 test lugers?

Ron Wood · 12-14-2007, 11:19 AM

This is not an instructional manual. It is a report of the results of testing the Luger, Colt, Savage, etc. in 1907.

You had asked about manuals for the 1000 Test Lugers a few months ago, and my response at that time was that I doubted that there was a specific manual published for those Lugers. If there were any manuals provided at all they most likely would have been the standard DWM commercial booklets available during that period.

cirelaw · 12-14-2007, 03:46 PM

Im wondering if there are any records of those lugers which were returned after the testing period, And were the holsters up for sale at bannermans or other seller with a Luger.

Edward Tinker · 12-14-2007, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cirelaw
1. Im wondering if there are any records of those lugers which were returned after the testing period,
2.And were the holsters up for sale at bannermans or other seller with a Luger.

1. Not really (there are a small handful listed in the Reese book)

2. Yes, you can still buy reproductions of the bannerman catalogs and it shows luger test holsters for sale, it was lsited up until the 1950's if memory serves me correct....

cirelaw · 12-14-2007, 04:05 PM

Do you recall how much they were in The Good old Days

cirelaw · 12-14-2007, 06:33 PM

I just received for xmas a gift of both the brown a blue sealed box of 1918 boxed luger ammunition, Ill ask trusty Steve to post it. Ive never seen the brown variation till now, which leads me to the next issue, why did ammunition with the same year come in two different boxes. The brown box is featured in 'Land of Borschardt, under ammunition, and I beleive Walters book, The Luger Story I think

thegundude · 12-14-2007, 06:50 PM

Eric, a little birdie told me to post these pics here...

cirelaw · 12-15-2007, 08:01 AM

Thank you Steve, Im leaving you in my will!

12-12-2007, 12:27 PM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	During our Armys Test Of Goerge Luger's 45 did George suppy German DWM 45 rounds, or did he depend upon our domestic 45 rounds used by colt??I have an original box of the earlier dwn test ammo. Eric, Esq

12-12-2007, 12:36 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I think this is covered in the book by Reese. If memory serves me correct, Frankfort arsenal (US arsenal) was supposed to supply them with ammo so they could test in germany, and were late and then did not work right, so DWM made their own. I am 95% sure that ammo was supplied by the USA gov't for the trials. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-13-2007, 01:28 PM	#7
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Posted at Eric's request... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-14-2007, 12:03 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	1907 Test The booklet is an original copy of the 1907 test trials report...a little worse for wear but complete and original. The Luger is a Krause replica of the .45 Luger so not original (but a good fake!) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-14-2007, 11:19 AM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	This is not an instructional manual. It is a report of the results of testing the Luger, Colt, Savage, etc. in 1907. You had asked about manuals for the 1000 Test Lugers a few months ago, and my response at that time was that I doubted that there was a specific manual published for those Lugers. If there were any manuals provided at all they most likely would have been the standard DWM commercial booklets available during that period. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-12-2007, 12:57 PM	#3
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	A functionally correct .45 cal ammo was provided by DWM, US 45acp did not function well in the test guns, and it stands to reason that the only ammo available when building the guns was DWM's so perhaps the test guns were built to their own ammo....

12-13-2007, 08:18 AM	#5
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	It makes sense that the ammo tested would be the same us ammo to be used in the field. Since I started researching the topic, I amazed how many types, loads, weight, proportions there were. I trying to find a picture of the early navy 9mm, Its seem anything labeled Navy is not only rare but super expensive!

12-13-2007, 12:43 PM	#6
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Ed You are truly the 'Luger rennasance' man, your God given hard drive given you, continues to astound me. What I respect it that you give your opinion, based on your education, both taught and absorbed. Whas there ever a luger inquiry that ever stumped you? Luv ya eric

12-13-2007, 01:51 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,048 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,948 Times in 1,198 Posts	Hi, DWM (and Luger) found that the .45 ACP supplied by the Frankford Arsenal was loaded inconsistently and produced vastly different pressures making it difficult to fine-tune the Luger's lockwork. As a gobetween, DWM/Luger reverted to creating their own .45 ACP ammunition so that the pressure curve was somewhat more consistent during testing. The 1907 trail reports mention the fact that Luger brought his own ammunition and it noted that one of the reasons not to choose the Luger was because 'The powder needed for the Luger ammunition is not now obtainable in the USA'.

12-13-2007, 02:19 PM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thank you so much for posting my holster, There are wear marks and indentation marking that line up perfectively with the test luger,

12-13-2007, 03:08 PM	#10
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thank You our dear friend in Belgium. You know more about a luger tested in our country than any of us!

12-14-2007, 07:34 AM	#12
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	RON RULES!!!

12-14-2007, 08:00 AM	#13
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Do you know if such instructive booklets were printed for the 1000 test lugers?

12-14-2007, 03:46 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Im wondering if there are any records of those lugers which were returned after the testing period, And were the holsters up for sale at bannermans or other seller with a Luger.

12-14-2007, 04:05 PM	#17
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Do you recall how much they were in The Good old Days

12-14-2007, 06:33 PM	#18
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I just received for xmas a gift of both the brown a blue sealed box of 1918 boxed luger ammunition, Ill ask trusty Steve to post it. Ive never seen the brown variation till now, which leads me to the next issue, why did ammunition with the same year come in two different boxes. The brown box is featured in 'Land of Borschardt, under ammunition, and I beleive Walters book, The Luger Story I think

12-14-2007, 06:50 PM	#19
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	Eric, a little birdie told me to post these pics here... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

12-15-2007, 08:01 AM	#20
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thank you Steve, Im leaving you in my will!