Forward toggle link

[trigger]

I�´ve notised a small crack on the left hand side on the forward toggle link.
Cant it be repaired or do I have to find another?

I try to attach a photo

Thankful for help

Kaj

[trigger]

Heres the right one

sorry

[Karl]

Kaj,

I would call that a significant crack. I also see a flat spot on the recoil spring lever from the firing pin housing slamming into it on full recoil. This suggests a weak recoil spring or the use of ammo that is too hot. I would guess that it would be better to replace the toggle link than to repair it. I would examine the gun carefully for other damage, especially the breech block. KFS

[LugerVern]

Good eye Karl!

Kaj

Karl is correct, improper ammunition or a weak recoil spring has caused some mechanical damage. A good welder can fix your damage but replacing all worn parts and verifying head spacing afterwards is another option.
Can we see a picture of the back of your breechblock? Also look at the breechblock in the area of the extractor, often the breechblock is damaged here is such conditions.
How does the back of your frame and the ramps of your frame look?

Let us know how you do on repairs

Vern

[trigger]

Hi

I�´m really impressed by the interest and help from you guys. I�´ll come back tomorrow morning as I need daylight to get good photos.

Friday night in Stockholm, lugerproblem and raining, but a bottle of wine and a lovely wife helps.

see you

kaj

[Ron Wood]

A bottle of wine is a momentary pleasure, but a lovely wife is a joy forever.

[RBorecky]

If the toggle is numbered to the pistol I personally would have someone who is good at welding grind it out,, weld and clean it up. If not at least save it for the future and do not toss it out. Rick B

[Dwight Gruber]

Is this a Luger you use to shoot? Is it matching?

If the answer is yes to both, find a replacement toggle train to shoot with (including its connecting link) and do not alter or weld the matching toggle train. You will have to reblue it, and that will represent a much greater reduction in value than simply having a cracked toggle link.

Regareless of the this, if this is a Luger you intend to shoot you need to solve the underlying problem--whatever it is which is causing the bettering problem--before you continue.

--Dwight

[trigger]

Hi
The Luger came as a bonus when I bought some guns for my club. As the Luger is a very accurate shooter I decided to keep it myself and use it for "classic" competition.
I�´ve used about a 100 standard rounds (Sellier&Bellot 124 gr FMJ-RN) and about a 100 selfmade 4,3 grain Vihtavuori 340 + 124 gr Magtech FMJ RN.
The Luger has mostly matching numbers but I dont think its a collectors item. Anyhow its a nice gun and I would like to keep it in action.
New springs are ordered from Wolffe Springs.
2 questions
What can happen if I carry on using it with the default toggle link
and were can I find a new one.

Enl photo

yours

Kaj

[trigger]

Sorry

Dont know how to attach more than one photo

Here is the back of the frame

[Karl]

Kaj,

The white metal on the lower rear face of the breech block looks like it has been filed or polished down (it should all be blued). The dark, low spots at 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock in your photo appear to be scars from slamming into the frame. In the photo of the frame you can see semi-circular dents on either side of the central milled groove from contact with the back of the breech block (matching the breech block scars). In addition, the white metal on the frame rails where the toggle rides up looks unusual, as if it has been sanded or filed. It is difficult to judge from photographs but it appears to me that someone has done some amateur work to the gun.

I am not a qualified gunsmith and cannot attest to the safety of these parts, however, if there are no cracks, I think there is a good chance that they are still serviceable. The toggle link, on the other had, must be repaired or replaced and I would recommend that you have a qualified gunsmith who is familar with lugers examine the gun.

To answer your questions: What can happen if you keep shooting this? You might only loose an eye if you are lucky. Kaj, I don't want to upset you with harsh words but this is dangerous. You could maim or even kill yourself or someone standing next to you or behind you at the range. This gun is talking to you - listen!

Sources for Luger parts incude EBay and several forum members, especially "lugerdoc" Tom Heller. New springs are available from Wolff. See the links on the forum homepage.

The bad news is that this is going to cost some money to repair. The good news is that you put 200 rounds through it and it didn't self destruct. Consider yourself lucky. KFS

[Vlim]

Hi,

The 'scars' on the frame are pretty normal for a gun that sees regular use. The same goes for the toggle ramps. Repeated contact with the toggle knobs will eventually wear off the blue.

In my opinion, this gun has been well and thoroughly used, possibly not with the best ammunition for it, causing the defect in the toggle train.

But then again, we have to remember these guns are getting 'really' old and defects will develop, even when using normal ammunition.

I would not use that cracked middle link for anything other than display purposes. I certainly wouldn't want to shoot it in this condition, or with a welded up middle link. Get a replacement link.



Compared to the frame of my shooter:

[trigger]

I,m now trying to get a new link.
Thanks for all your help advice.
The gun is now dismantled to 95% and it will be thrilling to see if I can get it together again. (never done it before).

[LugerVern]

As you can see there is some difference in opinion here, pictures can be very misleading, please proceed with a high level of caution for your safety.
Even with new parts seek out the advice of a gunsmith, even if it is just to check your head spacing after replacing or repairing the link; then at the same time they should be able to tell you if there is hidden damage. We can not fully inspect your gun at a distance.

No gun is worth getting hurt for.

Good luck

Vern

[Steinar]

I'm trying to figure out why the rear part of the breech block looks to have been ground down. Perhaps to make it go back even further?

So far back that if actually strikes the rear part of the frame + making the forward toggle link have a too sharp sharp angle and therefore cracking it against the breech block.
Perhaps it's more a question of bad gunsmithing skills rather than hot loads?
I notice what looks to be a Lahti barrel on it, many of them are ex-military pistols.. If the military 9mm rounds are hot in sweden, that could also be the nutcracker.
As Vern says, it's best to be cautious. Replacing the toggle would most likely fix it, but there could also be problems with the frame. Look, or make a gunsmith inspect the area where the receiver (=barrel extension..or 'slide') meets the frame (the cut near the takedown lever). Also the receiver itself.
It hurts me to suggest this.. but if you deactivate it, you can probably sell it for the price of a simular Luger. At least thats the case over on our side of the border.

[trigger]

Hi Morgan.
The gun has not been used for 20 years by the former owner but he gave me some of the ammo he used. The ammo was what we i sweden call 39B which is a military surplus from WW". Rather (wery) hot with steel penetrating bullets. (I did not use this ammo) When I get new springs (and hopefully) toggle link, I,m going to paint the rear of the frame to see if something still hits there.
Or will I immidiately brake the new toggle link?

encl photo of rear end frame

[trigger]

Here is a photo of the coupling link. The shiny part fits exactly the mark in the rear part of the breechlock. As the mark in the breech block is rather deep,slanting from back and forward, ca 2mm this must have taken some time to make by shooting. The coupling link is not damaged apart from beeing a bit shiny at that spot.

[Dwight Gruber]

I think we have here a very good tutorial on what happens when you shoot a Luger with excessively hot ammunition.

Note the wear on the rear portion of the toggle knobs in the last photo. It would be useful for good, close, well-exposed photos of this area and the frame ramps to determine if this is use wear or if someone actually filed these areas.

It would also be useful to see a picture of the back of the frame, outside, where the toggle tail slams against it.

--Dwight

[Vlim]

The rear of the frame will always be touched by the rear toggle link, as the inside will always be touched by the firing pin retainer.

A good test to see whether the spring is right is the 'tape test'. Stick a small piece of masking tape (paper tape) to the rear of the frame and fire a round. When the spring is correct, there should be an indentation in the tape, but the tape must not be torn.

-Paper torn: Spring too weak/ load to powerful
-Paper dented: All is fine.
-Paper not touched or hardly touched: Spring too strong / load to weak.

One of my VoPo DWM frames had such excessive wear on the toggle ramps that they were not only polished clean, but deformations to the frame ears could be observed with the naked eye. One of the reasons why that portion of th ears was hardened seperately later on (see Krieghoffs).

[SIGP2101]

Is it just me, but from that picture I can see that your recoil spring is not the right one for 9 mm Luger. It shorter than it supposes to be and it seams broken.