Hold open (when was it added?)

MFC · 06-04-2007, 10:42 PM

Hi All,
I think I remember reading that the hold open was not on the very early Lugers. If that's correct, when was it added? What S# range and year?
Also, if the frame is cut for a hold open, should you assume it came with one, or is there a transitional period that could have had the frame cut without the hold open? Is there a difference in the date when it was added between commercial and military?
Thanks in advance,
Mike C.

Ron Smith · 06-04-2007, 11:01 PM

Hi Mike,

The order to add a hold open was issued May 6 1913 (Jan Still's Imperial Lugers - pg. 23) All Lugers in service were to be retro-fitted and all new production were to be fitted with hold open. 1913 was also the first year for stock lugs.

Ron

Dwight Gruber · 06-04-2007, 11:01 PM

Mike,

The Pistole Parabellum was designed to include a holdopen. They are present beginning in 1900, in all collector-designation models 1900 Old Model through 1906 New Model.

During testing for adoption as service sidearm, the German army decided that the holdopen (and grip safety) were unnecessary complications to the pistol, and so were designed out of the 1908 model (military and commercial) for simplification and weight reduction. These pistols began production in 1909. The corresponding P-08 Commercial model was produced without a holdopen as well, although there are examples known with original holdopens.

In May 1913 the German Army thought better of it, and revised the P-08 specification to again include a holdopen. Some DWM 1912 P-08 are found with holdopen; most DWM 1913 and beyond have the holdopen included. Erfurt began production with holdopen in 1913. The corresponding collector designation 1914 Commercial also includes a holdopen. All Luger pistols of any nature manufactured after this date include the holdopen.

By the same directive, all P-08 currently in service were to be retrofitted with a holdopen. DWM and Erfurt pistols between 1909 and 1913 which have the holdopen added have a characteristic pin inserted in the right side of the frame above and to the left of the trigger, and a small crown/Letter inspector stamp certifying the work.

All Lugers contracted by the German Navy--collector designations 1904, 1906, 1908, and chamber date 1916-1917--have the holdopen.

The frame interiors of Lugers which were not manufactured with holdopen were not machined to accept one. A Luger frame machined for the holdopen should find one present.

--Dwight

MFC · 06-04-2007, 11:49 PM

Thanks for the quick responses. That clarifies it for me, but brings up one more question. Is there a difference between a hold open for a short frame and the long frame?
Mike C.

Ron Wood · 06-04-2007, 11:52 PM

No.

MFC · 06-05-2007, 12:37 AM

Thanks Ron,
Quite eloquent.

Mike C.

Ron Wood · 06-05-2007, 01:03 AM

A little out of character for me...I usually compress a simple sentence into a paragraph and a half.

Ron Smith · 06-05-2007, 09:11 AM

Mike ,

It's called , getting a word in edgewise.

06-04-2007, 10:42 PM	#1
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Hold open (when was it added?) Hi All, I think I remember reading that the hold open was not on the very early Lugers. If that's correct, when was it added? What S# range and year? Also, if the frame is cut for a hold open, should you assume it came with one, or is there a transitional period that could have had the frame cut without the hold open? Is there a difference in the date when it was added between commercial and military? Thanks in advance, Mike C.

06-04-2007, 11:01 PM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hi Mike, The order to add a hold open was issued May 6 1913 (Jan Still's Imperial Lugers - pg. 23) All Lugers in service were to be retro-fitted and all new production were to be fitted with hold open. 1913 was also the first year for stock lugs. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-04-2007, 11:49 PM	#4
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Thanks for the quick responses. That clarifies it for me, but brings up one more question. Is there a difference between a hold open for a short frame and the long frame? Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

06-04-2007, 11:52 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	No. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-05-2007, 12:37 AM	#6
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Thanks Ron, Quite eloquent. Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

06-04-2007, 11:01 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Mike, The Pistole Parabellum was designed to include a holdopen. They are present beginning in 1900, in all collector-designation models 1900 Old Model through 1906 New Model. During testing for adoption as service sidearm, the German army decided that the holdopen (and grip safety) were unnecessary complications to the pistol, and so were designed out of the 1908 model (military and commercial) for simplification and weight reduction. These pistols began production in 1909. The corresponding P-08 Commercial model was produced without a holdopen as well, although there are examples known with original holdopens. In May 1913 the German Army thought better of it, and revised the P-08 specification to again include a holdopen. Some DWM 1912 P-08 are found with holdopen; most DWM 1913 and beyond have the holdopen included. Erfurt began production with holdopen in 1913. The corresponding collector designation 1914 Commercial also includes a holdopen. All Luger pistols of any nature manufactured after this date include the holdopen. By the same directive, all P-08 currently in service were to be retrofitted with a holdopen. DWM and Erfurt pistols between 1909 and 1913 which have the holdopen added have a characteristic pin inserted in the right side of the frame above and to the left of the trigger, and a small crown/Letter inspector stamp certifying the work. All Lugers contracted by the German Navy--collector designations 1904, 1906, 1908, and chamber date 1916-1917--have the holdopen. The frame interiors of Lugers which were not manufactured with holdopen were not machined to accept one. A Luger frame machined for the holdopen should find one present. --Dwight

06-05-2007, 01:03 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	A little out of character for me...I usually compress a simple sentence into a paragraph and a half. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-05-2007, 09:11 AM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Mike , It's called , getting a word in edgewise. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...