Police luger help needed

[schmalts]

I guess i should have put this here instead of the markings forum??
Oh well, here goes.I know it is a police model DWM, and that the grip strap marks mean it is a Municiple police force drom the Dusseldorf district but what date would this have been made?? Only marks are the "n" with crown and the odd marking under the barrel that i pictured.
It has 2 matching mags with wood bottoms and the usual 1-2 marks along with the 4 digit serial number. Is there any other place i should look for marks that may tell me a date?
The holster i suspect is not original for this gun but do not know either.
Any idea of what the value of this gun is?Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[policeluger]

A 29 DWM sneak, non matching holster as noted, need personal inspection but would value 2k+, is it in the "r" suffix range?.....please let me know if you are going to sell it. thanks

[schmalts]

What do you mean "R" suffix range? I am new to lugers.

[Ron Wood]

Under the serial number on the front of the frame is a small cursive letter. This is part of the serial number and policeluger is asking if it is a "r".

[schmalts]

Well i have no clue what that is, but if it is an "R" someone has bad hand writing LOL! So what is that thing? Also, What does "sneak" mean?

[John D.]

Originally posted by schmalts
.... So what is that thing?..

I think it's an out-of-focus "q"??

Best to you!

John

[schmalts]

looks more like an "A" to me...

[John D.]

Don't forget - these are lower case cursive letters... In our Technical section, you can see some of the "q" examples and others..

Hope this helps!

John D.

[RockinWR]

* I agree w/ John D. It is a "q" suffix block.
* Mine is S/N 3039q bearing a sear safety and the same 4 pip crown scriptic "G" accepted barrel with the "ghost" eagle Simson(?) style proof mark.
* Your hoster was made by Carl Weiss Lederfawarenbrik located in the town of Braunschweig in 1939. This PT.08 was accepted on behalf of the Army by Waffen Inspector WaA750. A clearer picture of this holster's acceptance mark is shown in Jan Still's, Third Reich Lugers...., Pg. 117.
* Another contemporary pistol/rig to ours, S/N 5479q and S.D.III.43 grip strap marked, is shown in Jan's Weimar Lugers on Pg.138. Mine is grip strap marked (S.Ar.I.837) to the Arnsberg Schutzpolizei (City Police). Our revised form of police grip strap marks were introduced in Feb., 25,1932.
* Jan's information suggests these pistols were made of new components in 1927. The C/N receiver proof suggests our pistols started out as DWM commercial; possibly in 7.65mmP. As commercial pistols, most of the small parts will be marked in the hidden manner with the last 2 digits of the S/N. For example, the takedown lever and the sideplate will be marked on the lower edge.
* Now sometime in the early/mid 30's, our pistols were revised for a rearming of the German Police. One apparent revision is they were rebarrelled by Simson(?). I notice the toggle pin on your example is numbered to your gun. This practice was introduced about March, 1932. The sear safety was introduced to the police pistols in 1933? And finally, I suspect this as my Schambach *L accepted holster, which bears the gun's S/N on the back, is dated 1934.
* Possibly Ed can add to the Simson activities in the early 30's. The other choices for an organized, large scale revision at this time was Mauser or the Police themselves. What do you think Ed?
* One last note: Is your mag matching to this very nicely finished example??
* Trust this helps.

[schmalts]

Originally posted by RockinWR
*
* Mine is S/N 3039q bearing a sear safety and the same 4 pip crown scriptic "G" accepted barrel with the "ghost" eagle Simson(?) style proof mark.
commercial; possibly in 7.65mmP. As commercial pistols, most of the small parts will be marked in the hidden manner with the last 2 digits of the S/N. For example, the takedown lever and the sideplate will be marked on the lower edge.
* Now sometime in the early/mid 30's, our pistols were revised for a rearming of the German Police. One apparent revision is they were rebarrelled by Simson(?). I notice the toggle pin on your example is numbered to your gun. This practice was introduced about March, 1932. The sear safety was introduced to the police pistols in 1933? And finally, I suspect this as my Schambach *L accepted holster, which bears the gun's S/N on the back, is dated 1934.
* Possibly Ed can add to the Simson activities in the early 30's. The other choices for an organized, large scale revision at this time was Mauser or the Police themselves. What do you think Ed?
* One last note: Is your mag matching to this very nicely finished example??
* Trust this helps.

First .. What is a scriptic G ?
second, yest the takedown and sideplate are marked as you thought.
Third, yes the toggle pin is serialized.
Fourth, the Holster is stamped 1939, and has no serial number of the gun that I can see, but has a Nazi proof and i find that odd, and think it is not the original police holster?
Fifth, yes both mags are stamped in the wood with the serial number and also 1-2 to show it had 2 mags to begin with.
And lastly, all this info coming in is great!!

[Don M]

To add a bit to what Bob (RockinWR) has said, the crossed-out R in the grip strap marking indicates the pistol was issued to the precinct police (Revierpolizei) of Schupo Command III of the D�¼sseldorf administrative district. Unfortunately, we don't know which city in this district was Command III. It probably was not D�¼sseldorf or Elberfeld-Barmen (Wuppertal). The fact that the R was originally included in the marking indicates it was applied before the 25 Feb 1932 revised marking instructions were issued. These instructions did not include a provision for the R designation, which is probably why it was subsequently canceled. Most likely, the pistol was issued to the police and marked soon after it's manufacture in 1927.

[Ron Wood]

"Scriptic" is how some refer to the Germanic Fraktur alphabet. The mark under the crown on the barrel of your Luger is a "Fraktur" or "Scriptic" letter that Bob has identified as a "G".

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by RockinWR
...* Now sometime in the early/mid 30's, our pistols were revised for a rearming of the German Police. One apparent revision is they were rebarrelled by Simson(?). ...
* Possibly Ed can add to the Simson activities in the early 30's. The other choices for an organized, large scale revision at this time was Mauser or the Police themselves. What do you think Ed?

Bob, unless there is evidence of being rebarreled by Simson, i.e. Eagle 33 is usually seen and sometimes Eagle 6, then it is very hard to tell if Simson did any rework to it.

You do find that new-made 7.65mm lugers were bought by the police and they had to rebarrel them to 9mm (to be standardized is what is beleived and makes sense).

Ed

[Guntoter]

It's interesting that this Polizei Parabellum has both matching mags and in a Waffenamt accepted military holster. I suppose the vet who picked up the rig could have originally did so with the Polizei holster, but maybe the condidtion or color wasn't to his liking so he switched it out for the military one he also found. Or maybe the Polizei used military holsters for replacements. Or an even more stranger reason, maybe this pistol and mags were put with the military holster and carried by someone in a Combat Police Battalion? An interesting rig nonetheless

[Don M]

Ed, the only hard evidence I know of indicating a police force purchased Lugers in .30 cal and later rebarrelled them are the Bremen Schupo Lugers with x'd-out 7,65 markings on the chamber. All of these pistols were manufactured and probably delivered in or before 1925. Apparently, the Bremen police used them in .30 cal for some period of time before rebarrelling them in 9-mm. This may have occurred after the IMKK left Germany in January 1927. I suspect that any Lugers purchased by police after the IMKK's departure were delivered in 9 mm.

Guntoter, quite a few police-marked Lugers were transferred to the military in the mid-30s; however, most of these either never had sear safeties installed or had them removed. Since this pistol has an intact sear safety, your first supposition seems most likely.

[schmalts]

What is your guys guess as to the value of the gun without the holster?
This gun may go up for auction but the guy o got it from has not made up his mind yet. If the value is in his perceiced range he may sell it otherwise he said he will keep it. He usually thinks his stuff is worth more than it is.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Don M
Ed, the only hard evidence I know of indicating a police force purchased Lugers in .30 cal and later rebarrelled them are the Bremen Schupo Lugers with x'd-out 7,65 markings on the chamber. All of these pistols were manufactured and probably delivered in or before 1925. Apparently, the Bremen police used them in .30 cal for some period of time before rebarrelling them in 9-mm. This may have occurred after the IMKK left Germany in January 1927. I suspect that any Lugers purchased by police after the IMKK's departure were delivered in 9 mm.

I have seen lugers made in the late 1920's time period and they have Simson Eagle 33's. I can see no reason that new made lugers would be stamped with eagle 33's unless the barrel was replaced.

I do wonder at the years made, mid 20's, possibly later...