NRA & ACLU as ALLIES?

[John Sabato]

here is a link to a story in the NY TIMES of all places discussing the collaboration of the ACLU and the NRA regarding the RKBA concealed in your vehicle in TEXAS! Strange bedfellows eh?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/05/us...=1&oref=slogin

[HerbZ]

Can you believe the quote from the Texas prosecutor?!

â??The presumption of innocence does not make the person innocent.â?�

So, does that mean that a person is somehow both presumed innocent but also treated as guilty until proven otherwise or what? It's like something from Lewis Carol or George Orwell.

But I'm not the least bit surprised to learn that the ACLU and the NRA are allies in a legal case. It's a sign of the times we are living through with Liberty under attach from all kinds of extremist both foreign and domestic.

BTW in Ohio you either have a CC permit or any pistol must be unloaded and locked away, either in the trunk of your car or in some container. And all magazines, clips, or speed loaders better be empty too.

[Edward Tinker]

I never consider the ACLU as an enemy. It is just that they have traditionally supported the "left". If your "rights" have been stomped on, they are some one you can turn to, whether it is as an atheist, person of color, physical problem (handicapped), or here, the gun owner...

I figure never count out someone as an "enemy" when they could help.

Ed

[Jim McArthur]

Herb, what the prosecutor actually means is that innocence exists in two realms: "at law", and "in fact".

"In fact" means that "the guy really didn't do it", in objective reality.

"At law" means that he may have in fact done it, he may not have: but he retains the "presumption of innocence", "at law", until such time as the verdict is handed down. At that point his presumption of innocence is no more. "At law", he's then either "guilty", or "not guilty".

"Not guilty" does NOT mean that "we the jury have determined that he didn't in fact commit the crime", merely that "at law, the prosecution has failed to carry its burden of proving to us, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he did in fact commit the crime."

No one is ever "found innocent" or "vindicated" at trial: this is news media nonsense.

Does this make sense?



Jim

[HerbZ]

Jim,

Now that you restate it like that, I not only understand it, but I realize that I'm understanding it again. Several years ago I served on a jury in a criminal case, an experience that I had till now pushed out of my mind. We went over this sort of stuff, along with the concept of reasonable doubt, several times before finally delivering a guilty verdict. Sort of makes me wonder if you're an attorney?


Ed,

Don't know what you mean by the ACLU having traditionally supported the "left." I'm old enough to remember when the ACLU defended the right of the American NAZI party to march through a Jewish neighborhood in suburban Chicago in the 1960s. And the kicker is that the ACLU attorney that represented them was a Jew. Then I also remember that in the 1990s the ACLU defended the KKK in Cincinnati at Christmas time when they want to display a cross next to the the City's Christmas tree and Jewish Hanukkah menorah display on their Fountain Square there down town. Nazis and Klansmen are generally not considered part of the "left."

[George Anderson]

The KKK and the American Nazi Party have nothing to do with the American political "right".

[HerbZ]

The KKK and the American Nazi Party have nothing to do with the American political "right".

Perhaps most people who consider themselves to be part of the traditional American political "right" may want nothing to do with the KKK and the American Nazi Party, but in the political science spectrum of left, right, and center; these groups are usually place on the "right." The political "left" certainly has more than their share of extremist groups to disown and disavow too. And while the political "center" has until recently been bereft of extremist, there may be some Libertarians who are now ready to fill that bill.

"O Tempora! O Mores!"

[Jim McArthur]

Originally posted by HerbZ
Jim,

Sort of makes me wonder if you're an attorney?

Herb,

Yes, I am! I don't practice law for a living, though: I work in labor and employee relations for the Department of the Navy.

I do represent the Agency at administrative hearings, though.

Jim

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by HerbZ



Ed,

Don't know what you mean by the ACLU having traditionally supported the "left." I'm old enough to remember when the ACLU defended the right of the American NAZI party to march through a Jewish neighborhood in suburban Chicago in the 1960s. ...

My point exactly, that the ACLU does not just cover one area. However, to most folks in the gun world, the ACLU is thought of as left winging...

Too much political discussions is, well, it is frowned upon on the forum


Ed

[HerbZ]

Ed,

I whole heartedly agree that too much political discussion should be frowned upon in any gathering were most questions of differences can be rationally settled or left alone as matters of personal taste or aesthetics. I'd like to take one parting shot across the bows of the entire political spectrum, but I'm reminded that a gentleman should if possible leave the field without spattering dirt on anyone.

Herb