To who were they issued to ?

[jovis]

Hello again;
I would like to ask a historical question. I would like to know who in the German Army, lets say WWI for instance, were issued the Luger pistol? For instance, were they only issued to German officers and/or non-comms? A simple question I admit but one that's always been on the mind. Can any out there have an idea?

[George Anderson]

German officers in 1914 were not issued pistols, they had to buy them. Of all German rankers in the 1914 Army, the field artillery man was most likely to be carrying a P08 as authorized issue to enlisted field artillerymen was 100%. This is followed by Ersatz MG companies where 99% of the other ranks were issued P08s, then Medics (Sanitaets) at 87% and Machinegun Companies at 86%.

Of course the above would be at full issue but in 1914 the P08 was still in limited supply so ersatz pistols like the C96 Mauser and '07 Dreyse were often substituted.

Source: "Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel"

[Dwight Gruber]

Norman,

Unlike the tendencies of US and allied forces, in Germany carrying a sidearm was not a symbol of rank. Pistols (not just Lugers) were issued to anyone whose duties made it impractical to carry or use a long arm on a regular basis.

This would have included bicycle or motorcycle couriers, artillery support personnel, ambulancers, supply train personnel, headqurters staff, Engineers, telegraph personnel, mounted cavalry, railway personnel, observation balloon personnel, civilian workers near combat or sensitive areas...the list goes on and on. You begin to get the idea that the Germans were very practical about pistol issue.

If you can track it down, Volume IV of German Pistols and Holsters 1834/1945 by Robert Whittington details the issuance and use of pistols in WWII by the German army tables of organization. Here is the link to a review on Jan Still's Forum which goes into a bit of detail: http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=117

--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

hmmmm, Dwight, I think it is a common misconception that US soldiers carried a pistol / rank.

In WW2 they made the M1 carbine to replace the pistol, as they issued many in WW1. Although the carbine was not a huge success, it was designed for that purpose.

Signalmen carried a 45, Supply enlisted carried the 45, engineers carried a 45, all the machine gun crew, etc.

In the post-WW2 environment, if the TOE said a 45 should be issued, it was.

Examples of TOE for WW2;
http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/...ns_company.htm

http://www.militaryresearch.org/7-87page5.htm

752nd Tank Battalion
Personnel and Equipment Summary
(Based on 18 November 1944 T/O & E, Modified 6 January 1945)

Total Personnel: 721
Officers: 37
Enlisted Men: 681
Warrant Officers: 3


Total Small Arms: 818
.45 Cal Pistols (M1911A1): 3
.30 Cal Carbines (M2): 240
rifles, etel deleted for space

I have to assume that prior to WW2, those carbines would have been pistols.

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Ed,

Of course you are right. My initial comment (using the word "rank" when I meant something more akin to "status") was an insufficient attempt to suggest an attitudinal difference between the Germans and Allied military forces which colors the perception of who carries the sidearm, and which may inform the American presumption that the Luger was an officer's pistol.

I was going to carry this line of thought out a bit, but if I do I'm afraid that I may just get into more trouble. Hmmm, maybe I already have. Best to just leave it at that.

--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

not from me Dwight I do think that the German army used pistols more than ours did, also as a means of rank (PP's and PPKs) for high ranking officials.


So understood your point, but just thought I'd point out that pistols were used a lot by US enlisteds too, many times by them "picking" up what they could, TOE be damned

[jovis]

Greetings all;
My original question was merely on the hypothetical presumtion that it is a well known fact that in a battle of any kind involving military forces, that it is the lower echelon, (privates, corporals, certain level sergeants, ect) that do the most killing. Therefore, they need a more powerful weapon, (means), to execute that task. Officers, being generally, of a more supervisory nature, need only a pistol, or a carbine, ect, to protect themselves in an area of battle while overseeing the progress of the planning. They might pick up a rifle, (if needed) to more better insure their survival in an all out brawl, this being nessessary due to the dictates/circumstances of the moment. Also, personally, I consider a pistol, sword, or dagger, to signify a certain respect of rank, although like some of you I agree that this would not nessessarally apply in all cases.

[George Anderson]

Jovis, no offense intended but my assumption is that you are not a veteran.

[jovis]

Mr. Anderson;
You are correct. I was not in the military. I was only trying to convey my opinion about a concept. It is true that I am an "amateur" in some matters, and I welcome opposing/differing points of view. I feel my assumtion merits some truth in what I wrote if only in a common sense sort of way. You really have to pause and think over what I wrote above, and understand that it does, after all, come from an inquiring nature and point of view. I will ask all sorts of "silly" questions here, as you will see, and I am never afraid to ask a question or express a point of view. I thank you for taking the time to read, and give me your reply.

[Guntoter]

Hi there. I was in the Air Force and issuance of pistols was most sought after, but tended to be officers and security police mostly. As to the WW1 German Military, they must have issued a boat load of Lugers since we have so many thousands in collections here. Apparently the German's saw the pistol as what it really is, a purely secondary weapon (as the US military also does), but gave it a much higher rate of issue than we do. Of course, the German Military in WW1 was incredibly large.

Most reference material I have seen state that the German Officer was required to purchase their own sidearm and I believe initially it would most likely have been a 7.65mm pistol. I think status had a lot to do with this, as a smaller pistol seemed to indicate an "important" person who did not need a large pistol to fight, but purely for a last ditch self defense. Also, large pistols are heavier and get in the way of administrative tasks. (The nature of American Officers sometimes is just the opposite, the bigger the pistol the more powerful and important they think they are..lol) Also, pre-war German Officers were much more sword conscious and this was the true sign of rank for them, a pistol would only be for field use, but secondary to the sword, at least initially.

I do not know this for sure, but I believe that by the later stages of WW1, pistols were being issued to Officers in addition to enlisted. The German Military was a much different organization near the end than it was originally and class distinctions were much less by the end. Also, the 7.65mm pistol, the many versions, were seeing widespread issue also, not just to Officers. Available photos, in addition to many 7.65 Imperial German marked pistols, prove this out. We can only imagine the huge rate of loss of weapons in the brutal and violent conditions of the First World War so many pistols were needed.

[Navy]

There is a German saying, "Big Man, Small Gun". And if you examine the many photographs of the German general staff and politicos, you will note the almost exclusive use of "mouse" guns. A notable exception was von Ribbentrop, who was frequently photographed wearing a P-08. His piece resides today in my small collection of provenanced guns and may be seen in the front matter of Mr. Jan Still's most excellent Weimar Lugers.

Tom A

[lboos]

Hi all. great subj. I was the E9 in my unit and part of my duties was to issue wepons when deployed and needed. 90% were M16a1,s and a few 1911/a1s for the commander and a few outher off,s.
My mem. is not that good but i seem to remember in some of my training that a medic could carry a 45 1911 which is a defensive weapon but could not pick up a auto. weapon . [please dont laugh] because of the Geneya convinton. example. putting auto. weapons on a Dust off med. Helo. just a few examples if you had the bad luck to be cap. by the bad guy,s could be used aginst you. i think Ed. knows more about this then most of us. and George i am a Vet. 42yr.s. just one with a bad mem. Thanks for looking at my rambling

[Craig]

Sargent Major

God bless you and thank you for 42 years of hard service trying to keep idiots like me out of trouble!

Craig Riggs

[George Anderson]

I think it's a mistake to think that Imperial German officers did not arm themselves with Lugers. With the possible exception of General officers I would imagine many line officers, up to and including field grade, did choose to arm themselves with P08's. My initial response to this thread was an effort to establish that within the Imperial German Army the pistol was not deemed to be a token weapon of authority.

As an earlier post indicated, the Seitengewehr was actually the weapon that distinguished rank with the type of portepee the defining factor.

[OLDJARHEAD]

lboos

E9'S Could never spell.

Mike E6

[Craig]

They didn't have to. They just growled and everyone got out of their way
Craig E5

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by Craig
They didn't have to. They just growled and everyone got out of their way
Craig E5

I never screwed with a SGM, still don't whether they can remember stuff or not


Ed
SSG

[lboos]

Graig and Oldjarhead. Thanks for the kind words. and George, i dont understand a word you say. quit trying so hard. relax. Portepee ? lboos.

[Roadkill]

Best portrayal I've ever seen of an old school SGM is Sam Elliot in "We Were Soldiers Once" . And he carried - and used - a pistol.

[OLDJARHEAD]

I spoke up to plenty of them . That is the reason I never got to the top of the heap .