GunBroker auction

[Brent B.]

Gunbroker auction 56779053 is offering a regular Luger with holster and an artillery stock. Seems to me this is an illegal outfit if they attach it to the Luger in the ad. Should the seller be notified about the potential problems with the ATF?

Brent B.

[Ron Wood]

Yes, he should be notified and he should break up the rig into individual pieces. The 1917 DWM does not go with the stock and holster. The stock is a repro navy and doesn't belong with the gun or holster. The holster is a rather nice Finnish example complete with tools. It would be a shame to have them confiscated through lack of knowledge. Technically, the rig is not illegal unless you actually attach the stock to the gun, but that is splittihg hairs and the close proximity of the gun and stock in the ad is enough to make an uncomfortably close call.

[Brent B.]

It would be nice if all who read this post would contact the seller and let him know. If he gets enough emails he might see the light and stay out of potential trouble. Brent B.

[John Sabato]

Ron, I believe that possession of both a stock and the incorrect Luger that it can attach to, is called "constuctive intent" on the charge paperwork... when the put the cuffs on you.

Not a position that I would want to be in...

[Ron Wood]

You are correct John. But, if you also have another Luger for which the stock is correct then it is legal to possess both Lugers and the stock. The key point is that if you have a stock you had better have only the stock or a correct Luger for that stock. Even if the seller also has a Navy Luger in his collection, he still should pull his ad as he is in jeopardy.

[Pete Ebbink]

Is the legal problem of "owning" such pieces or actually "attaching" them to each other ?

[John Sabato]

It is a legal grey area Pete... I know in the past that mere possession of an artillery, navy, or carbine stock AND possession of a stock-lugged Luger that is not a match to the item would get you in serious trouble... As Ron stated, you better have one corresponding pistol for each stock that you own if you intend to stay out of trouble... no extra stocks or no extra Lugers....

The act of attaching any stock to a non-corresponding Luger (or any non-exempt handgun) is what is termed as "making or manufacturing" a short barreled rifle (SBR) in violation of the NFA. You can only do this IF and only IF you have registered the gun with the ATF and paid the $200 making tax and have received approval from the ATF.

If you own ONLY 4 inch standard type Lugers that happened to have a stock lug... and you buy any type of stock that would attach to them, you have, in the eyes of the ATF, "constructive intent" to violate the NFA... Actually attaching the stock to any of your standard 4 inch Lugers is a DIRECT violation of the NFA.

[Ron Wood]

John,
The "no extra stocks or no extra Lugers" isn't exactly what I think you meant to say. As long as you have at least one correct corresponding Luger for each stock that you own, you can have as many "extra Lugers" as you want.

[John Sabato]

Thanks Ron... at least one of us is thinking clearly today...

[Parabellus]

John, Ron, & Pete,

This is certainly an issue when I go to the range. I generally take both the 4" Luger and the 8" Arty with the stock and holster rig. It would be so easy to attach the stock to the wrong pistol. No thanks. I'm very careful about that especially when one of my sons is with me.
As I will soon get a C96 with its own holster-stock I'm not too worried but I wonder about some of the aftermarket Broomhandle stocks I hear about. Are those reproductions of actual C96 stocks that were used in the old days? Are they allowed by current law?

Russell

[stefanosg]

"Mauser, model 1896 semiautomatic pistol accompanied by original German mfd. Detachable wooden
holster/shoulder stocks, all semiautomatic German mfd. variations produced prior to 1940, any caliber. "

- I copied this line from the ATF's website. If I am reading this correctly, it would seem that the repros are a no no. I dislike the language. It seems too easy to misinterpret. I've read where its ok, but this seems to say otherwise. I love shooting my '96 with the stock, but not so much that I would go to jail to do it.

[Edward Tinker]

The way around any of this is to write an official letter to the BATF and ask them. Once a letter is received back, you will know if original reproductions are okay to own or use with an approved type navy/artillery/1906.

I know in the past that mere possession of an artillery, navy, or carbine stock AND possession of a stock-lugged Luger that is not a match to the item would get you in serious trouble...

Also, this is the very interpretation that caused many folks to grind off their stock lug in the 1960's.... I do not know if I subscribe to the theory that possession of a stock and only a 4 inch barrel in a collection makes you a felon...

That said, it is the going to a range and shooting it that gets you into trouble. I have an artillery, but no stock, so, this is just conjecture.

ed

[wlyon]

In 1982 I purchased a reproduction stock to go with my 1917 Artillery. I asked an ATF agent about owning a reproduction. He said a reproduction was alright as long as it was an exact copy of the original. I bought the stock from Odin. They sent a Certificate of Authenticity and Registration which states that these were authorized by Mauser.. These stocks are numbered and the number is on the certificate. Bill

[Brent B.]

Glad to see we have a good discussion going. Has anyone other then myself contacted the seller to give him your opinion? At least if he gets a number of emails thru GunBroker he'll have been well warned. Thanks, Brent B.

[Curly1]

I see Inglis Hi-Power pistols for sale online in the US with stocks, they are legal? What's the diff if they are, barrel length, ATF approved for that model?

[Edward Tinker]

Curly, what does the ATF rules state? Which models are permissiable?

[wlyon]

From ATF:
Luger, Artillery model, pistols having chamber dates of 1914 through 1918 or 1920, having German Weimar Navy markings consisting of the letter M over an anchor and a German Navy property number accompanied by original Artillery Luger flat board stocks, bearing German Weimar Navy markings of the letter M over an anchor with or without Navy property numbers.
Luger, the 1920 Commercial Artillery model, pistrols as mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having undated chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the inscription Germany or Made in Germany on the receiver and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.
Luger, DWM Pistol, model 1900, 1902, or 1906, in 7.65 Luger or 9mm parabellum cal., having the American Eagle chamber crest, and barrel lengths of either 4" or 4-3/4, with original detachable Ideal shoulder stocks and Ideal frame grips.
DWM Luger, Original models 1904, 1906, 1908, 1914 and 1920. Naval pistols in 9mm parabellum or 7.65mm cal., in both the Commercial and Naval military varieties in both altered and unaltered barrel lengths in the model 1904 and in both altered and unaltered safety markings in the model 1906; with original board-type detachable shoulder stocks bearing brass or iron discs, with or without markings, or if without brass or iron discs, being of the Navy flat board-type. This exemption applies only to the listed Naval Luger pistols if mated to the Naval Luger stock and will not apply if the Naval Luger pistol is mated to the Artillery stock. The Naval stock has an overall dimension of 12-3/4", a rear width of 4-5/8", a front width of 1-1/2", a rear thickness of 9/16", and a front thickness of 1-3/16".
Luger, DWM Stoeger model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols in 7.65 mm or 9mm parabellum cal., in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2", having either American Eagle chamber crests and/or Stoeger frame and/or upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery rear sights, having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen" and having frame safety markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe," together w/original commercial flat board stocks of the artillery type, which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks; may include a "Germany" marking.
Luger, DWM Pistol-Carbine, model 1920, 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., with accompanying original commercial type shoulder stock, with or without forearm piece, having barrel lengths of 11-3/4" TO LESS THAN 16".
Luger, German model 1914, Artillery model pistol, mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having hcambers dated 1914-1918, bearing Imperial German military proofmarks and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks.
Luger, model 1902, Pistol-Carbine, 7.65mm Luger with original commercial type shoulder stock and forearm and 11-3/4" barrel.
Luger, Persian (Iranian) Artillery model, pistols, as mfd. by Mauser prior to 1945, accompanied by the original artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stock, bearing a S/N in Farsi characters stamped into the wood on the left side.
Luger, semiautomatic pistol, certain variations with Benke-Thiemann folding should stock.

[Curly1]

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
Curly, what does the ATF rules state? Which models are permissiable?

It says for Inglis, No1 Chinese contract with a C in the serial number, tangent site with original Canadian holster/shoulder stock.