Unusual Dutch Vickers

[Lugers down under]

Dear Forum members,
Herewith some photos of a rather interesting â??Vickersâ?� Dutch East Indies Luger that I picked up at an auction this weekend here in New Zealand.

I am informed by the vendor, who is a highly respected collector here, that he purchased this Luger in the famous (only in New Zealand), Doctor Ongley auction in February 1977.
I have subsequently confirmed that this luger was in that early auction.
Dr. Ongley was a famous early New Zealand pistol and long arms collector and the auction after his death in the 1970â??s was a benchmark in New Zealand gun collecting.

This Luger, which was one of many unique guns in the â??Ongleyâ?� auction, is interesting inasmuch as we now know so much more about the â??Vickers contractâ?� and the Dutch East Indies guns today,

Firstly what is very significant is that this Luger has no major proof marks or serial numbers or date stamps whatsoever, apart from the side plate, which is stamped 30 and I believe mismatched.



It clearly has a Dutch East Indies frame, with â??RUSTâ?� on the safety. It also has a grip safety fitted to a frame that was intended to have a grip safety.




The toggle is clearly VICKERS but has no British nitro proofs. The barrel is pristine on the inside but carries the same amplitude of wear, scratch marks and loss of blueing on the outside as the total gun does overall, the blueing overall is about 90%. The extractor is marked â??Geladenâ?� on both sides in the typical Dutch manner. The barrel looks like it has never been fired.




The receiver is totally unmarked on the outside. There is no Queen Wilhelmina proof mark, and I have measured the size of the receiver with a vernier micrometer and hold the view that the receiver has never been modified. The marks on the front of the frame look like file marks but on a closer look under the glass look more like clamp marks or damage.



The grips are very coarsely chequered and ill fitting and look like the worst apprentice in the â??gun makers schoolâ?� made them. However, they are both stamped GS in an oval, and I have no reason to believe that they were not made in the East Indies.



I believe that this gun was â??made up from partsâ?� in the East Indies using Vickers parts held as spares in the arsenal in Batavia.

We know from history that they did have replacement barrels and other parts and that they had developed considerable skill at refurbishing Lugers. This gun reeks of an early East Indies rebuild in the arsenal, but what puzzles me is why no serial number on the frame.

The front of the frame where the numbers were usually struck is also pristine and very sharp and clearly there has never been a number on the front of the frame or under the barrel.



I hold the view that this gun was assembled but never issued.

I would really really be interested in some views on this little baby,

Regards Murray. â??Lugers down under.â?�

[John Sabato]

Murray, I am afraid that the western hemisphere has gone to sleep for the night... you will have to wait until they get back up... the Dutch Luger expert members are asleep... and that is where I am headed...

let's see what comments tomorrow brings...

G'night my friend.

[Vlim]

Hi,

A most interesting pistol and it's certainly not impossible that the gun was assembled from parts at hand.

Quite a few of these pistols were damaged by using sten gun ammo in them and it appears that all tricks were used to keep guns serviceable with a minimum of down time. We've seen many upper/lower/toggle mismatches which were all Dutch contract parts.

The fact that this pistol lacks receiver/barrel/frame markings indeed seems to point towards the GS spare parts bin. Are any small parts like the toggle pin or sear bar GS-marked?

[Lugers down under]

Thanks for the comments gentlemen.

After a very close examination of the â??Unusual Vickers Lugerâ?� which I recently acquired,Herewith is what I have found.

I dismantled the Luger and have listed my findings as follows.

Barrel/receiver Barrel and receiver have no number or proof marks except for a small â??Pâ?� on the area adjacent to the barrel lug.
Both the receiver and the barrel are of an extremely high quality
and finish and suggest that they are not of GS manufacture but are original Vickers or DWM. Both look like they have been together since new. .

Toggle assy:
Extractor: Geladen stamped on both sides no numbers
Breach block Numbered 32 with c/n proof on top LH side.
Very small C/8 on rear edge.
Middle toggle VICKERS / LTD no numbers or proof marks
Rear toggle no proof marks or numbers other than a 6
On the underside rear.
Rear toggle link No marks or numbers
Firing pin assy No marks or numbers

Frame assy
Frame LH side â??Rustâ?� in small letters 2.5mm high with curved flukes on the arrowhead.
Under grip, small letters T , L/C, and a small triangle adjacent to main spring.
â??Tâ?� on inside edge of front strap. (see comments on â??Rust and arrowâ?�)

Frame front No marks or numbers whatsoever.

Frame LH side Small U inside adjacent grip screw hole front

Frame internal â??Gâ?� stamp in area adjacent to barrel lug cavity. Hold open spring numbered 30, â??Hâ?� stamped in the bottom of recoil lever well.
Frame rear No marks or numbers whatsoever.

Grip safety No marks or numbers, looks like very original grip safety DWM or Vickers

Trigger No marks or numbers

Locking bolt No marks or numbers

Side plate Number 30 on side in later DWM style.

Grips Very coarse ill fitting with GS in oval stamped inside.

I also own two other Dutch East Indies Lugers, one is a first series DWM serial number 1471 and the other is a VICKERS LTD serial number 6890. I noticed a difference between the two Vickers guns in the area of the RUST and arrow,

On this latest no numbers gun, the RUST letters are 2.5mm in height and the arrow has curved flukes on the arrow head, very similar to the much older DWM, while my VICKERS
Number 6890 has the word RUST with 3mm high letters and straight flukes on the arrow head.

Page 133 of Bas J. Martens and Guus de Vries excellent book the Dutch Luger, shows a VICKERS Luger # 5275 with small letters RUST (2.5mm) and a curved fluked arrow, while page 132 shows another VICKERS Luger # 9214 with large letters RUST (3.0mm) and straight flukes on the arrow head, the same as my VICKERS # 6890..

I have drawn the conclusion rightly or wrongly that some where in the VICKERS production they changed the RUST and arrow dies or when production first commenced Vickers were using parts made by DWM already stamped in the old 2.5 mm high letters and changed frames mid production.

Had anyone noticed the difference before?
Any comments would be welcome.

Good Luger collecting

Lugers down Under.