A Study...

[Pete Ebbink]

Nice photos showing a redone (IMO) swiss commercial...serial # 87080...

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/06swcomm662.htm

[Luke]

Would surely like to see his photo setup.

[Edward Tinker]

Luke, you ought to ask him, everybody likes to be complemented.




Ed

[thegundude]

Ed, you look very nice tonight. The color of your tie is reflected in your eyes...

Some of those shots, the ones where it looks like it's floating in midair, can be had by placing a background behind a piece of very clean glass and setting the gun on the glass. Good lighting can remove any shadows.

I bet he sunk alot of time into the stand. I like the green he's using for the landscape...

[Pete Ebbink]

$ 5,550.00 is a lot of money to consider spending on this piece...IMO...

Can anyone dig into their Still books...is a # 87xxx serial appropropriate for a 5-digit 1920's Swiss commercial...???

I am away from my books for a day...

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

I have 87095, 87132, and 87141 listed as Swiss Commercial from a very old database...

--Dwight

[c3006]

Pete
If you were guessing from what you can see why do you think its a redo? Just wondering clint

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Clint,

Here are some of the things that do not look right...IMO...

1. The "80" number stamp on the rear toggle "tang" appears to have lost most of its definition and depth of stamping.

2. The straw looks too new and some of the color is off. There does not seem to be any wear on the straw parts as one would expect to see some on a gun over 85 years old. The right side of the trigger and even a bit of the right side of the magazine release normally show some wear.

3. Bluing just looks too new. No patina/oxidation one can see under the bluing. Color of the bluing looks a bit too blue as well...

Again...does this bluing look 85 years old ?

The dicing of the toggle knobs will typically show patina/rust/oxidation in the bottom of the checkering pattern. This one looks too uniformly blue in all crevices of the checkering/dicing.

4. The front frame well interior looks awfully clean...as if maybe chemically cleaned during the rework.

5. Not sure if the sear bar should be strawed (would have to check on this more...).

6. The shape of the polished area under the thumb safety lever does not seem well shaped or cut. Looks a bit "fuzzy" in the left-side full pistol photo. It looks a bit too narrow as well.

7. The sales ad write up neglects to use the word "original" when describing finish and condition. One might be wise to demand a "letter of authenticity" from Etowski/Shattuck before buying the piece.

Hope this helps...

[c3006]

I thought it was to good to only be $5500. I also wondered how it could have stayed so pristine in all wear areas but this is not impossible. the SN# on the frame was buggin me also.I have been looking at this gun but was a little sceptical of it and thank you for your imput on it. clint

[Snakeman]

Hi Pete,
Don�´t you think that there should be some "haloing" as well (especially on the barrel stamps) if it was in original finish ?

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Pete (in Sweden)...

I am not sure about whether to expect "halos" on Commercial M1906 lugers...I do not collect them and have not paid attention.

Maybe other LF member know the answer to your good question...???

[Ron Smith]

Also, there doesn't appear to be any peening of the blue on the rear of the frame under the toggle stop. Even routine cycling of the toggle to check the chamber would leave some minscule blue wear. Hard to believe that no one has ever cycled the action. Let alone not fired it in 100+ years.

[Dwight Gruber]

Although Ron Wood will probably be the best source for the info, I can report that my 1906AE has strong halo on all the barrel stamps.

Should this gun have a c/N test proof?

DWM's Swiss military contract ended in 1914; this gun has a serial number which is mixed in with 1921-dated Commercials. Under these circumstances, should one be suspicious of a Swiss cross on the barrel as is presented here?

The safety area on these guns was not polished, but actually routed out to a depth of around .003mm (I measured mine...). This leaves a distinct raised edge to the white area. It is difficult to tell, but a couple of the photos have the apearance of the safety area polished white beyond that edge.

One of the things I look at when determining the originality of a Luger's finish is the end of the retaining pin which sticks up through the top of the left toggle knob. The pin is white, and usually has an appearance of dullness, often very dark. The pin on this gun apears polished. It should be noted that the normal processes of digital photography could mimic this appearance.

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Dwight...

Do you mean like this...???

Excellent point about the little swiss cross stamping along the left side of the barrel...I had not noticed that, before...

[drbuster]

With all due respect to Pete's expert description above, I believe this luger to be original. Guns in this condition are usually Swiss, as these folks kept their firearms in pristine condition. If any wear occurred, they would take the piece to their local military gunsmith for expert rust blue refinishing. I have seen (and own) several vintage Swiss lugers in this impeccable shape. The small retaining pin in the rear toggle IS in the white, as it should be. The sear bar should NOT be strawed, this was true only with the Borchardt pistol, early prototypes (such as B-L#5) and with the earliest Swiss "trial" lugers (see pages 50-51 in Lugers at Random). This luger is appropriately priced considering its condition. I'm sure it would be similarly priced if it was offered by Brad Simpson or Doug Smith. I think this is one of Tom Etowski's best offerings to date.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Doc,

Can you clarify...???

Are you saying this one is an original finish or of original configuration (but refinished...) ?

If an original finish; I respectfully disagree...and we can just agree to disagree...


If original configuration; why would a Commercial luger not have BUG or Crown/N proofs (on barrel and receiver) and why does it have an Swiss Ordnance or Swiss Arsenal "rework" swiss cross on the barrel. ?

If orginal configuration but refinished; what would justify an asking price of $ 5550...wouldn't a non-arsenal refinished Swiss commercial run in the $ 2500-3000-3500 price range ? I say non-arsenal refinished...as I do not think the Swiss Bern arsenal would have done the polished area at the thumb safety this poorly...IMO.

The PIA photos from 2-3 views do appear to show a sear bar that is strawed...if that is not appropriate for a M1906 commercial but it is strawed on this gun...then someone got carried away in the rework shop...did they not ?

[Ron Wood]

I donâ??t try to judge the finish on a Luger from photos, it is a waste of time. I am more than willing to question mechanical or configuration discrepancies from photographs, and blatant finish problems (e.g. lack of halos on military Luger barrel numbers) but I have given up on evaluating nuances. Depending on how it was photographed the picture can enhance or detract from the actual condition of the gun. PIA photos always look pristine, but in the case of this Luger I would wager that viewed first hand it would look considerably less minty. If you want to get a better feel for the actual appearance of the piece look at the shot of the forward frame well and observe the finish on the top of the frame rails.

I have a high-resolution graphics monitor and even with that I am not prepared to attempt to judge the authenticity of any of the finish, markings or machining. Pete says the safety polished area looks too narrow and Dwight says it appears to be polished beyond the edges of the millingâ?¦too narrow?, to wide?, just right?â?¦darned if I can tell. And if anyone can see to the bottom of the checkering on those toggle knobs to tell for sure if there is any rustâ?¦wow.

I agree with Dwight that it seems odd for a Swiss cross to show up on a commercial barrel this late in production, but those pesky little crosses do show up in odd places, e.g. on the first 200 or so 1900 American Eagles and again on some in the 8000 range. Still it is cause for caution, as is the lack of proofs. Legitimate Lugers without proofs do show up from time to time, but added to all the other anomalies of this piece it sets off warning bells.

I think Pete made a very good observation, just stated it wrong. The sear bar is not strawed, but the portion of the grip safety that blocks the sear is strawed, and that is a sure sign of someone getting â??carried awayâ?� with refinishing. Whether the whole gun is refinished or just â??touched upâ?� is hard to say, but this part has been fooled with, no doubt about it.

IMHO the piece is â??almost OKâ?�, but not enough so to justify a $5,550 price tag, not even close. Iâ??m not convinced that it is â??appropriately pricedâ?� even if I was sure it was in original condition. But, by the same token I am having a bit of trouble adjusting to the $5K-$10K prices of other dealers and the trend toward $3K for nice condition but otherwise common Lugers.

[drbuster]

After further examination, I agree with Ron. I hope Tom Etowski will bring this piece to the upcoming Reno show so I can see it first hand. One's opinion may change quickly. If the upper portion of the grip safety IS strawed (It may just be the light) then all bets are off. Hope to report back later on this gun. $5.5K IS high but if this gun is right, then that is the commanding price these days.

[drbuster]

I had a chance to bring this piece up on Mike Krause's computer in his shop. His screen was a little bluer than mine. The straw parts looked proper and the grip safety was definitely NOT strawed. His comment was that this piece looked absolutely righteous to him and was a fine representation of a very few (?50 perhaps) of similar late commercial Swiss lugers in the 87,XXX of the BKIW era. The price he thought was kind of high but not out of line with retail prices on such a piece. If it was an early version of a Mauser Swiss commercial, add another $2K to the price!

[Ron Wood]

If Mike's computer is looking at the same photos I am on the PIA site, I will agree to disagree that the grip safety is "definately NOT strawed". I hope you get the opportunity to examine it first hand, because in my opinion the the bright portion of the grip safety is strawed and the best that can be said is that this point of contention cannot be positively resolved from these photos. The sad part is that after all this publicity, even if I am right the straw will probably be removed before its next showing.