Collector vs Shooter Discussion

[Bob in OH]

I collect TR rifles, but occasionally sip from the Luger goblet. I find this board the most rational and civil place for gun discussions among the several that I frequent. There is a major rift between segments of the rifle collection community regarding what is collectable

Segment 1. Collect matching rifles (K98k) of collector quality...

Segment 2. Collect parts guns (K98k) including Russian Captured rifles.
***********************

Here's what I gather from you Luger guys. Lugers fall into two classes: Shooter and Collector quality. A collector quality is a matched gun with, say, >70% original finish? Shooters... are all others.

Generally, is the above a fair assessment of Luger mentality?

Here's why I ask. Rifle guys are constantly arguing over the collectability of RC rifles. My comment is that anything can be collected including balls of string, but not everything has collector quality. Seem reasonable?

The question comes up: "Are RC rifles Collectable?"

Some of the RC guys are miffed that they are told their rifles are not collectable. FYI, RC rifles are those that the Russians disassembled and reassembled postwar + black painted the metal and shellaced over the wood and popped an 'X' on the receiver....These have been in storage since the 1950s??

Curious if I have missed how you guys classify Lugers...

TIA...Bob

I think you are right in the way you are thinking about it. However there are rare guns with maybe one mismatched part that I think are collectable. May a Kreighoff luger with a small part mismatched would still bring a fair amount of money. Maybe shooters are lugers under $700 and collectable lugers start at $900 and go up. A little overlap between the two. I collect a lot of other German items. Some are rare, but because of a lack of interest, they do no bring a lot of money. For example I just bought a beautiful Imperial trench knife for $45 that oneone else wanted. So I guess it is not collectale. By the way what is TR and RC?

[policeluger]

I may be way off here, but for me collecting is by me and for me...it is pleasing to my heart, not trying to impress anyone, just please me. I am more impressed by those who feed and care for others year round, then the material items displayed here or any where else. If your pocked book only allows for Russian reworks, and you are happy with making a collection/study of them, bless you. Never let someone brow beat you by some expensive Luger display, its like buying a car to impress others, not meeting your needs and pocket book....then again Mrs. PL never let money stand in the way of buying a new car....best to you.

[Edward Tinker]

Richard and Howard both have made some excellent points, that a "true" collectable might be worth $50 because few people collect them, or something is "collectable" today and worth nothing 2 years from now.

Ed

[Ron Wood]

For example, how much are "Beanie Babies" worth today? They were a hot item a few years ago with some of them going for fairly substantial amounts. Now you rarely hear them mentioned. Fad collecting seldom is a wise investment, but Lugers are like the Eveready Bunny, they just keep going, and going...and going....

[Bob in OH]

TR= Third Reich...RC = Russian Capture...

Sure, one should collect what gives one pleasure, agreed. Also, let's not mix our collectibles. I don't care about beanies, or barbed wire, or Barbie. TR= Third Reich...RC = Russian Capture...

Sure, one should collect what gives one pleasure, agreed. In addition, I can "collect" anything. But, let's not mix our collectibles. I don't care about beanies, barbed wire, or Barbies.

My questions is just a simple Luger question...

In general, are Lugers not placed into 1 of 2 (general) categories by collectors? ==> Collector Grade or Shooter Grade

The short answer is yes two categories. What goes into the two catagories is the more difficult question and one for which different people will have different answers.

[Rod WMG]

Bob, I think you may have missed the point about Ron's illustration by the use of the Beanie Babies reference. It seems totally valid to me.

I've had the misfortune of having the Luger bug bite me as the prices of everything Luger seems to be going up. What are considered "shooters" by the guys here often command prices which would net me very nice guns in other catagories I'm interested in.

Now, I'm not really a collector and I'm not saving my guns for anyone in particular to inherit. Still, I remember one collector here venturing the guess that what we view as mere shooters today might be collectible some day due to the fact that the supply of these guns may not "strech" enough to fill everyone's desire to own one. I sort of feel that might happen.

In the meantime I'll enjoy my meager shooter assembly.

[Dwight Gruber]

Bob,

The term "shooter" Luger and "collector" Luger get thrown around here pretty freely. To read these Forums you might get the idea--I believe that many casual correspondents have gotten the idea--that a perfect Luger is a "collector", and any flaws make a Luger junk, "just a shooter". Upscreen you suggest that Luger aficianados have these designations as "classes". You also note the disappointment expressed by collectors who are told that their guns are not "collectible". In this you have touched the essence of what I find so objectionable about these simple--simplistic--designations.

The answer to your question is not this easy.

Superficially, and according to Conventional Wisdom, there are three characteristics which describe a collection-quality Luger. They are condition, condition, condition. A Luger with all-original finish, number-matching, little wear to steel or wood, is certainly collection quality by definition. A Luger which is refinished or with much wear, pitting or damage, buffed-out, mismatched, would certainly seem appropriate to shoot. There is equally certainly no way to assign a percentage to the difference.

With Lugers there is so much variety in collecting potential that the other characteristics may be equally, or more important, than simple condition. The desirability of any Luger for a collection can be measured in part by the aspirations of the particular collector and a Luger's rarity and circumstance, compared to its condition.

Of course, there are collectors who collect expressly for condition. The mint-condition Luger--regardless of variety--is their grail, anything else is trading stock, or inconsiderable. Although everybody seems to want the best Lugers they can get, I feel safe in saying that condition collectors are not the majority.

I think the best way to demonstrate the breadth of Lugers' collection-worthiness is by some specific examples.

Vickers Lugers
Vickers Lugers are uncommon--only 6,000 produced, many fewer survive--and are desired by both general collectors and those who collect Dutch Lugers. Vickers (and all other Dutch models) were aggressively maintained by the Dutch East Indies army, and are almost never found with their original finish; very often they are rebarrelled, and parts are commonly mismatched or force matched. Though this violates the principle of condition, these guns are nonetheless desirable and desired by collectors.

This rework circumstance also applies to Finnish Lugers, which is a burgeoning collector category.

Test Eagles
This is another variation which defies condition. The 1,000 1900 American Eagles which were purchased by the U.S. Army to field test were very often hard-used and ill-cared-for. The circumstances of their use and eventual sale cause many of them to be in very rough shape, mismatched, or refinished contemporaneously or in modern restoration. These conditions have no effect on the desirability of authentic Test Eagles for a collection.

Bulgarian Lugers
Another example of rarity overcoming condition. The 1908 model of this variation probably represents the extreme case: for reasons which are not entirely clear, many examples of 1908 Bulgarian are found reblued, with -all- of their markings removed--they are identifiable only by distinctive and unique physical characteristics. And yet, this is still a collection-worthy Luger.

Police Lugers
During the years between the two World Wars many Lugers were pressed into municipal police service. Sometimes they were physically reworked with new parts, and commonly refinished to as-new condition. Collectors of Police Lugers very often assess the condition of these guns based on the rework and re-finish.

There are some Lugers which are so fantastically rare that they have demonstrated collection-worthiness in any condition--1904 Navy fall into this category, as do Russian (crossed-rifle) and Cartridge-Counter Lugers among others.

One can point to many other specific variations, I hope this lot will suffice.

It is worthwhile to note that a Luger's collection-worthiness may not bear any relation to its monetay value. An authentic 1917 Navy with no original finish and poor grips may not be worth much money; a beat-to-hell Test Eagle might not bring much either; but both are still collection-worthy Lugers--this is in my experience. I recently saw a buffed-and-blued Vickers sell for very little money, and recently a correspondent on an online forum considered buying a "sanitized" 1908 Bulgarian to shoot. Very often a gun like this will serve as a 'place-holder' in a collection until a better version can be obtained, but note, it serves as worthy in the collection.

There is an opposite side to the examples noted above. There are varieties of Lugers which are so common, or attract so little interest, that only the most pristine examples are worthwhile for a collection. The Alphabet Commercial Luger is the most egregious example of this, although the most common WWI and WWII Lugers might be considered here as well. Lugers in these categories, in very fine condition, are often considered sufficiently utilitarian to shoot.

Luger collecting is an evolving hobby, and the TR/RC K-98 examples you mention in your first post have a direct analogy in Luger collecting.

The East Germans ended up with thousands of Lugers which they reworked, re-marked, and refinished for issue to the Volkspolizei. Many of these guns have ended up in the US, where they were sold, and bought, as Lugers suitable only for shooting. In the last few years, however, some collectors have come to recognize these guns as a distinct variation, and believe that they might have a place in a general or a Police collection. It is too early to tell if Russian reworked Lugers will follow suit; I wouldn't want to bet against it.

There is another consideration with condition and the collection-worthiness of Lugers. The Luger market is rife with skillfully refinished Lugers masquerading as original, and outright forgeries of more rare or desirable guns. It is hard not to view high-condition guns with scepticism sometimes bordering on outright disbelief. In the face of this, some collectors have expressed the preference of owning a Luger which shows honest wear and condition commensurate with its age, which can be confidently considered an authentic example of whatever Luger variety they collect. I suspect this attitude will become more prevalent in the future.

Bob, I think I'm done here. These are the opinions of one collector; I know that I have said some things with which others will not agree, but you did ask. I hope that this has in some way illuminated your question (I don't presume to have simply answered, that would have been too...simple). If its too much late-night-at-the-keyboard I apologise (to you and to everyone else).

--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

To further Dwights point, but only as an addition, i feel there is no black and white in Luger collecting.

A few illustrations in my view;

The weimar police luger. To some luger collectors a weimar rework is a rework, same as a bubba rework, yet it has its place in my collection.

The 1923 Commerical might be in 98% condition, yet a lot of collectors do not want one, primarily because it is in 7.65mm.... You see the value of one of these at $500, and a mismatched 1940/42 is the same price or more!

All depends on the individual collector, thus Ron's point, on what is a collectable...

Ed

[pipeman45]

May I add my 2cents worth? In some countries it doesn't seem to hurt the value (as much as here) to have a firearm professionally restored. I noticed this several years ago in Germany. Is this still true across the pond? I only have the bug to collect shooters-But I love them just the same.

[Luke]

Further to Dwight's comment:

"This rework circumstance also applies to Finnish Lugers, which is a burgeoning collector category."

Finnish Parabellums (They didn't call them Lugers.) are, in my humble opinion, collectable guns in spite of the fact that they are almost always mismatched, reblued, and usually in less-than-pristine condition. From a historical perspective, each one is an elegant testimonial to the struggle of a Nation in short supply of all kinds of arms and in a desperate war for survival.

I am no historian (Would that I were!), but I would guess that almost all of the Finnish Parabellums saw combat duty. Broken or damaged pistols were likely repaired with any part available without regard to serial number.

Luke

[Curly1]

If you have a C&R licence in the USA you can get Finnish rebarrelled Parabellums here.

http://www.southernohiogun.com/lugers.html

[c3006]

All I can say is guns that were shooters 20 years ago are collectors today soooo what will be 20 years from now??

[Herb]

My .02$ worth I consider myself a collector, I collect shooters. They are usually inexpensive, and sometimes very nice. So they may have a mismatched toggle link pin, or an unnumered holdopen device, so what. Some are refinshed, some are just parts guns, but they are all Lugers. I cannot compete with the guys that earn in excess of $100,000 a year and have half that to spend on their collections. I'm retired and live on a fixed income and buy that I can afford, to me they are a welcome part of my collection. My ultimate goal is to get one example of each pistol from the major manufacturers. I currently have one or more from the following, DWM, Erfurt, Simson, Mauser and Vickers, I need an example from Swiss Bern and Kreighoff to complete my desired collection as I have no hope of ever finding a Spandau. In seeking the examples it is immaterial as to the condition of the weapon as the goal is to complete the collection. So, what is collectable, I guess it depends upon what you want to collect.

[lew1]

A few years ago, Richard Ellis had the 45 caliber luger on display at the Kansas City gun show. After that, Ralph Shattack had that 45 Luger carbine at Kansas City. In both instances I was allowed to hold the pieces (although Shattuck made me use rubber gloves). I am sure that Ellis and Shattuck realized that I could not afford them, and thought that what I collected was pure junk, yet they said nothing of the sort to me. Nor did they say that I could not hold them (the 45 caliber lugers) and look at them because I collected junk.

By the same token, over the years I have seen the collections of others, which were current production pieces, etc. These people thought they were collectors and had a collection of collectible weapons. Who am I to disagree?

I think that what is considered collectible is in the eye of the beholder. Who am I or you to tell that person that what he has is not collectable.

Although we may or may not agree with that person, I think that we owe deference to his choice and should not belittle that which he has chosen.

Lew is right. Respect for the other person and the Golden Rule, always the right thing.

[G.W. Gill]

Bob, If you like it get it. If it don't hurt the budget. Pre war K98's are the best of any rifle to shoulder and fire. Some may not agree. This is the Safari action of the big game hunters. To get a bolt and reciever matched is a winner!