The "Luger" Reputation

[Beowulf]

I've heard that Lugers need special ammunition, are prone to jamming and that this is the reason Hitler ditched them. Is this true? I know that one gunmaker produced a stainless Luger at one point and I really wanted one, but was told even by owners that they just weren't reliable. There were also some .22LRs that were made, some supposedly decent; however, I heard they cost too much to build and that quality control was spotty.

This is my Luger. Always wanted to shoot it, but y'know, you just can't do it. (I remember when I could afford Beretta 92s, right up til the time the military adopted them. Then I sold mine because they began breaking and hitting people in the face. Bummer.) Anyway, has anyone been able to get the design to work?


Beowulf

[Edward Tinker]

They must work, or it wouldn't have been in production for the german military for 40+ years


they can be picky, but I beleive a lot of the rumors are not true...


Ed

[Sieger]

Wolf:

I'm sorry, but this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read!!

By the way, Hitler loved the Luger. He is reported to have been such a good shot with one, as to be able to hit snowballs in mid flight.

Rather than give into insane rumor, I suggest you go to your local Wal Mart and buy some of the cheap Winchester white pack; then, find a local range and fire the pistol. I think you will soon find out just what a great piece of engineering the Luger pistol is.

Sieger

PS: Please sell me your Luger, as I will have decades of fun shooting it.

PPS: Now that I have vented, you should spend some time in our "Shooting and Reloading" section. Here you will find many threads discussing the design and just how to make it perform (and I really mean perform).

[Beowulf]

I never go by what I read in magazines, which is where I got the information. I've always loved the Luger looks, but have zero experience shooting them. (Even loading them is a chore...I understand a loading device is necessary. I might even have one with the Luger.) But I'd sure hate to shoot something so expensive and obviously of more worth to collectors.

But thank you for the info, especially about Hitler and the snowballs. (What happened to the guy throwing them if he missed?)


Wulf

[Sieger]

Originally posted by Beowulf
(What happened to the guy throwing them if he missed?)


Wulf

The famous American Journalist, Pierre J. Huss, was the snowball thrower.

Hitler was showing him just how well he could protect himself on his long, solitary walks through the Alps, if necessary.

Sieger

[maddog350gt]

Beowulf,

I think a lot of the bad press on the Luger is from a few un-informed "experts" like Ian Hogg. He runs down the luger in all of the books he's written. The Luger pistol is an excellent shooter. It does have it's issues. When shooting you should keep it as clean as possible and well oiled, if it gets gummed up the toggle will not go back all the way, if this happens it will not catch the loading round cleanly and it will jam with the toggle caught in the middle of the shell in magazine. If you think about it its very easy to understand what is happening, the toggle either doesn't clear the end of the bullet in the clip so it doesn't catch the rim of the shell and push it forward on the return stroke, or it doesn't go back far enough to give the magazine spring time to push the next round up to the loading position. Either of these issue are the result of the toggle not cycling all the way back. The only thing that could cause this is dirt and gum or a week power charge in the ammunition. If the ammunition is not powerful enough the same thing will happen as the toggle will not move back far enough. The idea that you need to use low power ammunition on a luger is wrong. The Luger was built for a powerful 9 mm round, the same one used in the german sub-machine guns; after the war other 9 mm guns could not take this loading and US manufactures back off on the 9 mm loads. Lots of people thought this was because of the Luger, it wasn't. If you use a good grade of ammunition and keep the gun oiled and clean it will perform very well, and shoot circles around any military model 1911.

The downfall of the Luger was that it was (and still is) the most expensive firearms design ever put into mass production. It takes nearly twice as many machining operations as the P-38, even though the P-38 has more parts. It was just too costly and took too long to manufacture, to meet the needs of the German army. It's close tolerances did not make it an ideal military weapon either, it doesn't like dirt. I certainly wouldn't be afraid to shoot one, but I would make sure it was clean and I had good ammunition.

Bob M.

[Sieger]

Hi:

Well, Hogg is a good name for someone that regularly badmouths the Luger! Ha!

I have found, through almost 40 years of actually shooting a Luger (on a regular basis) the following:

Yes, keep the Luger clean, though the rust and dust tests performed by the US Army, during testing of the Luger for adoption, were passed by the Luger. The original flat main spring (that didn't assure lockup on partial lifting of the toggle) was the listed reason for rejection of the design.

The Luger design relies very heavily on the proper weights of its springs for proper function. If the springs are out of spec, the Luger will jam. It's kind of like a Porsche with its engine out of timing.

If the ammo is too hot, the Luger will jam (breach block recoils too quickly and the magazine spring doesn't have time to bring the next cartridge up to full position) If the ammo is too cold, the breach block simply doesn't recoil far enough to catch the rim. Note the the jam is exactly the same for both problems!

The standard American loading, 124gr (at less than 1100fps) was the original Luger loading (pre 1930s Mauser modification). The Mauser Lugers of the late 30s, and onward, were set up for the hotter stuff. The Interarms Parabellums also seem to be set up for the hotter stuff.

The Luger is the most accurate pistol I've ever shot, given well developed handloads, using premium components with precise assembly. I have regularly out shot "custom target" pistols with my stock Lugers. Really, it's almost laughable at times.

If your Luger won't shoot, your springs are probably out of timing. Have your pistol checked by a competent Luger Gunsmith for proper tunning of the components.

Sieger

[unspellable]

The change in the 9 mm cartridge that resulted in poor reliability was not the power level. The Luger likes the standard load, not to weak, not too hot. It's the 7.65 mm cartridge that suffers from the factories under loading it.

The real problem was when someone came up with the brilliant idea that the cartridge should be loaded shorter than the original specs. The Luger magazine depends on the nose riding on the front of the well and a short cartridge drags.

There have been many attempts by the uninformed to tinker with the recoil spring. I've opened up several shooter grade Lugers and found no two springs alike. You need to have an in spec recoil spring.

The Wally World Winchester special seems on average to function as well as any factory load available.

Some one mentioned taking it to a Luger smith. That means a Luger smith. The average gun smith has little understaing of what makes them work. You will hear stories about how it needs a hot load. NOT true. The only thing a hot load will accomplish is accelerated wear and the risk of breaking a toggle knob.

[Vlim]

The 'you need to reload because today's ammo is too powerful' phrase is one of the most repeated incorrect phrase about the luger I've heard.

I've been shooting standard out of the box 124gr S&B 9mm for years without any problems. One P08 would cycle poorly and was cured after a Wolff mainspring replacement set was installed. It now shoots just as well as the other ones.

There is another reason for illfunctioning lugers: The magazine. Lugers are picky about their magazines and it normally takes a while to find the best magazine for a luger.

A fellow shooter said he never shot his luger because it didn't cycle properly. I gave him one of my mec-gars on loan and he emptied the entirel mag without any problems.

Like a vintage racing car, a luger needs some tlc in order to perform. That's all.

btw. The beretta 92 was improved. Years ago. When it was still known as the Walther P38. The beretta is no more than a cheap P38 rip-off.

[John Sabato]

but with a double staggered hi-capacity magazine Gerben!

[Vlim]

Beretta owner, John?

Seriously, the Beretta is a pretty nice pistol in it's own right, but I'd go for the 'original' P38 anytime (after a luger, of course) If you place a P38 and a beretta side by side on the table, it's not too difficult to see where the inspiration for the 92 came from. I wonder if there's any solid information on the P38 design being 'reused' by several other suppliers as the CZ 75 also leans heavily on the P38 design.

[John Sabato]

Good ideas are easily reused. and No, I don't own one... but I did serve in the Army for over 20 years, including the period after the changeover from the M1911A1 to the Beretta... with a choice between those two to defend my life, I would rather use the Colt design and a pocketfull of magazines than the Beretta... I am just more confortable with the colt... and I have an old saying about P-38's... ( As much as I like the design...and I do own one)... they are like lightning!!!! (they never strike twice in the same place). I find the trigger pull, even for single action fire, horrible compared to a Luger or anything else... The Beretta doesn't improve on that much, but inside a room in close quarters battle, the big magazine would be an advantage... IMHO

[minigun]

If I'm not mistaken, the only thing that "saved" the Luger was its holster. It saved it from all the dirt and grime throughout a battle field. Once a Luger is dirty they become very prone to jamming.

For its day though, the Luger was a technological breakthrough which also helped it survive so long.

[maddog350gt]

Tac,

No disrespect intended. My use of un-informed may have been a bit, well un-informed on my part.

It is just that I find Mr. Hogg's opinions of the luger to be more critical than the facts support. Two world wars and close to 8 million army pistols produced and used would seem to contradict his consistent low opinion of the luger for any application. I only own one of Mr. Hogg's 541 books as I feel his evaluation of the Luger is biased. I do agree with him to some extent on the evaluation of the 1911 Colt design; it is a better military weapon that will take the abuse of military service and withstand the dirt and the mud in the field. I agree that it is a superior weapon, at least until you want to hit something with it.

By the way Tac are you coming back to Portland next year? We could have a lively discussion of Mr Hogg and his thoughts on the Luger over a libation of your choice, my treat!

Bob M.

[MauserJim]

What is the luger's reputation for bulging? I have been told by a "gunsmith" that the pitting/corrossion in the bore would cause it to bulge. However, when I shine a light down it I see not major pitting or corrossion, just a 95 year old bore.

[policeluger]

MauserJim....you need a new gun smith, pitting the cause of a bulge, BS!!!

[MauserJim]

He said not that it had bulged, but that it would bulge, and I agree I think it is a load of crap. I'm trying to find a gunsmith in the North Carolina/South Carolina area that knows something about Lugers to look at it. If anyone is in the area please let me know.

[broomhandle]

Hi Beowulf,

The P-08 is a well balanced super shooting reliable pistol!

Why are you afraid to shoot your P-08?
Do all the numberes match on your pistol?
Have you had an expert check you pistol for insurance reasons?

I have a matching 1940 police Luger($2500 +/-) & a matching 1917 Artillery Luger ($1800 +)
I shoot few rounds thru them about every two months.

I know many of the posters here that have very costly pistols & will shoot them a bit. It's half the fun of having them.

Some of us will replace parts just to make sure nothing important get broken.

Be well,
broomhandle