Siamese Artillery

Big Norm · 09-22-2005, 10:35 PM

I got myself a prized 1936 Siamese artillery Luger this past weekend. It came with a magazine (one number higher than my serial number of 3540V). The stock number matches and it is on the left hand side of the neck and on the wood as pictured in Jan Stills "Third Reich Lugers" on page 191-3. The screw holes for the strap and the cup are there but look like they were never used. Walter says in his book that the shoulder stock had 'Mauser' embossed on it, mine does not have it.

No serial number or proof marks on the barrel. The front and rear sight are of the 1918 vintage (both non-adjustible). The witness marks do not line up. The only two digit serial number on either the front or rear sight is on the distance numbered blade of the rear sight and that is the number '15". It is located just behind the tang sight. No seriasl numbers on the tang or o the rear sight itself. All other two digit serial numbers are properly placed and numbered to the gun. Contrary to Walers book, the extractor and the safety levers are marked with a two digit serial number. (Funny thing. while Walters says that the extractor is unmarked, the picture of a Siamese LP-08 in his book has a numbered extractor as does the one in Jan Stills book).

On the rear of the frame, there are four proof marks. The first proof mark is just like that pictured in Jans book on page 191-1 for the four inch barreled Siamese Luger. The other three proof marks are different. The LP-08 rear proof marks can be found in John Walters book "The Luger Book' on page 247. They are like mine.

There is a four digit serial number on the left side of the receiver as pictured in Jan Stills "Third Reich Lugers" on page 191-2. If front of that number is a pretty much indistiguishable proof mark. The first character looks like a lazy 'U'. The other two characters I can't make out.

The front of the frame of the frame has the proper serial number and a lightly marked "ODIN ALEX VA and GERMANY" just below the serial number.

The grips are not numbered, but other wise are nice. The bore is great. The aluminum bottomed magazine has a proof mark of an eagle with either a '63' or a '65'. The spine is blued and crimped.

Light freckling rust all over the gun, but that is expected. The strawing held up good at about 85%. I would like it if others who have Siamese LP-08's would compare theirs with mine. Maybe we can even find the matching mags.

Big Norm

George Anderson · 09-23-2005, 09:17 AM

Norm, I have 3519v with a matching mag marked with "+" and E/63. Like yours, my stock is numbered on the wood but is a mismatch, 3501. All parts on my pistol match with the exception of the rear sight which is numbered 89, witness mark is also a hair off. My Siamese has no rust or pitting but an overall "jungle"appearance sort of a dull worn look high lighted by the usual silver metal exposure at the muzzel and on the side plate The proof appears to be a horizontal "U" with two crowns above it...one above the other.

From what I've read and heard, original production was limited to one hundred LP08s and Odin imported fewer than seventy-five. That being the case, I think they are one of the most undervalued artilleries around. I bought mine from Sarco with the stock about five years ago for $1200.

mauro · 09-23-2005, 03:19 PM

Hello Big Norm,
At page 90 of my book you can see the Siamese LP08 number 3511v with his unmatched stock number 3475. The picture shows the left frame and you can easily see the serial numbers and the Crown/Crown U on the receiver. The stock doesn't show the Mauser Banner although some Siamese models are reported with this.
I hope this helps.
Ciao
Mauro

Big Norm · 09-24-2005, 04:57 PM

George,
is your barrel numbered to the gun? Since my barrel is unnumbered and not proofed, I wonder if the barrels were replaced? I keep thinking of the Dutch West Indies Lugers that the climate messed up and the fact that most of them were rebarreled and dated as to when they were rebarreled. My bore looks very good.

I'll put your guns serial number on my watch list of mags that I keep an eye out for. So far I have gun numbers 3519V and 3540V and have to look for magazine number 3541V (your mag matches) and stock number 3519V (my stock matches). With the small number of Siamese artilleries out there we might have have a slim chance of finding something. Maybe we could contact Sam Buscemi. He had a Siamese artillery for sale a few months ago. Maybe he still has it.

Mauro,
it is too bad that I don't know who has the gun in your book. If that person was receptive to working out a deal, then we could add him to our search list. John Walters book "The Luger Book" page 246, says that Odin sold only 62 Siamese artillery Lugers in the serial range of 3453 and 3551.

A Mr J.D. Rousseau, who is a big Luger collector in Alaska and a friend of Jan Stills and who has many Lugers pictured in Jans "Third Reich Lugers" book, told me that the holsters for these guns had pretty well rotted away and were disposed of. So there isn't any sense on looking for them.
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 09-24-2005, 07:41 PM

Hey Norm,

Maybe Rousseau just tells other guys that so they will stop looking and he will continue to buy all the nice ones up...

mauro · 09-25-2005, 05:03 AM

Hello Big Norm,
The Siamese Artillery presented in my book belongs to Paul Regnier. He is a Swiss dealer. Actually he has a web site therefore you can try to contact him. I have all his coordinates if you need to contact him in Switzerland.
Look at his web site:
http://www.luger-genesis.ch/index.html

Cheers,
Mauro

Big Norm · 09-25-2005, 06:56 AM

Pete,
your getting suspicious of people in your old age. I don't really know Mr. Rousseau, but I did talk to him at the recent OGCA show. He had a beautiful 1915 artillery holster for sale for $1500. He seemed like a genuine, real nice guy and our conversation was very good. He said that he had some 200 plus guns and I kidded him about having that many treasures in a state that is known for its earth quakes. One good quake and all that treasure vanishes. POOF! I asked him how he accumulated so many Lugers in a state that is so far out of the gun collecting loop and he started rattling off all the high level gun shows that are so often mentioned on this forum. But I was very tired from my long drive to the show and I wanted to get back home to see the Michigan State/Notre Dame football game that was on TV that I didn't talk to him as much as I wanted to. Personally, in the gentleman class, I would rank him right up there with John Martz. Of course, John Martz is still number one though.

Oh, by the way, the MSU/Notre dame football game was a great game but I had to listen to it on my car radio off of the Notre Dame station. Next week MSU plays UofM and I WILL be home to see THAT game.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 09-25-2005, 07:09 AM

Mauro,
thank you for giving us Mr Regnier's web site. I will look at it when I finish this little note. I hope that his web site is in English. But, if Mr. Regnier is a dealer, then he probably has sold the Siamese artillery Luger by now.
Big Norm

George Anderson · 09-25-2005, 08:17 AM

Norm, the barrel on my Siamese LP08 is just like yours, unnumbered.

drbuster · 09-25-2005, 09:03 AM

I am told by authorities like Michael Krause, that most Mauser banner commercial pieces (especially police variations), except for a few contract pieces, were shipped from the factory WITHOUT serial numbers under the barrel, but just had groove and land dimensions.

Ron Wood · 09-25-2005, 10:42 AM

Big Norm,
Congratulations on acquiring a really scarce Luger. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I appreciate reading the details and learning yet another bit of Luger lore. Almost 50 years of collecting and I am still learning.

Big Norm · 09-25-2005, 02:23 PM

dbbuster,
nope, there aren't ANY markings on the barrel. George Anderson probably is finding the same thing. The front sight on an artillery Luger normally has a two digit serial number on it, but mine doesn't. The rear sight normally has two digits on it in a number of places, but mine only has it on one place and that two digit number does not correspond to my gun. So someone did a sloppy job in rebarreling these guns. But that is something that MIGHT be considered normal on these weapons. More input to my post MIGHT confirm that.

I am not telling the world (forum) about the deficiencies on my gun to down grade the gun. I am doing this to inform people about what they should expect as normal for this particular weapon. All the books that I have read indicate that one should not expect an all matching, 'mint' gun when they buy a Siamese Luger. The same would probably be true for a Dutch West Indies Luger. But Dutch West Indies Lugers are not my thing.

I would assume that the same condition would exist on a shorter barreled P-08. I showed my gun to Ken Karsted and he informed me that someone gave him a P-08 Siamese Luger for restoration. Ken is an excellent restorer of Lugers. Oh Man! That person just destroyed the collectablity of that particular Luger just to have something pretty.

Actually, I have heard simular experiences on the Persian artillery Luger. When the Persian artillery was packaged for export, the magazines and stocks were just thrown separately in a box and shipped out. No care was given to match up the stocks and the magazines to the guns. They were just guns to be exported. They were not considered to be anything collectible or valuable. So it would be luck to find a Persian artillery with a matching stock and/or magazine. Possible, but still luck.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 09-25-2005, 02:27 PM

Ron,
thank you for the compliment. Coming from someone that I consider to be a knowledgeable expert, such as I do you, really means something to me.

I still consider my find to be a prize.

Actually, I had an option to buy this gun or a 1914 DWM artillery with good, original blue, unit marks and in pretty good shape, but no matching mag. The price was pretty steep so I opted for the Siamese Luger.

Only time will tell if I made the right choice.

Big Norm

George Anderson · 09-26-2005, 09:08 AM

Norm, my Persian artillery, which is a contemporary of the Siamese, shares the same lack of barrel markings. Unlike the Siamese, it has no serial number on the rear sight. Check your PMs.

mauro · 09-26-2005, 09:15 AM

Maybe this can help the discussion:

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/37thai1.htm

lew1 · 09-10-2006, 08:49 PM

I have two of them. One I purchased back when they came into the country. The other I picked up yesterday.

3464v matches except there is no number on the barrel or front sight. The rear sight has numbers, which do not match the pistol serial number. One of the grips is numbered (but not to the pistol) and proofed. The other grip is not proofed or numbered, yet they are in the same condition which would indicate that they have been together for many tears. The finish is not too hot and very little strawing is found.

3490v also matches except there is no number on the barrel or front sight. The rear sight has numbers, which do not match the pistol serial number. Neither of the grips are numbered or proofed. The grips are in the same condition which would indicate that they have been together for many tears. The finish is much better that the first one and the strawing is better, though I would say that there is not much left.

09-22-2005, 10:35 PM	#1
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Siamese Artillery I got myself a prized 1936 Siamese artillery Luger this past weekend. It came with a magazine (one number higher than my serial number of 3540V). The stock number matches and it is on the left hand side of the neck and on the wood as pictured in Jan Stills "Third Reich Lugers" on page 191-3. The screw holes for the strap and the cup are there but look like they were never used. Walter says in his book that the shoulder stock had 'Mauser' embossed on it, mine does not have it. No serial number or proof marks on the barrel. The front and rear sight are of the 1918 vintage (both non-adjustible). The witness marks do not line up. The only two digit serial number on either the front or rear sight is on the distance numbered blade of the rear sight and that is the number '15". It is located just behind the tang sight. No seriasl numbers on the tang or o the rear sight itself. All other two digit serial numbers are properly placed and numbered to the gun. Contrary to Walers book, the extractor and the safety levers are marked with a two digit serial number. (Funny thing. while Walters says that the extractor is unmarked, the picture of a Siamese LP-08 in his book has a numbered extractor as does the one in Jan Stills book). On the rear of the frame, there are four proof marks. The first proof mark is just like that pictured in Jans book on page 191-1 for the four inch barreled Siamese Luger. The other three proof marks are different. The LP-08 rear proof marks can be found in John Walters book "The Luger Book' on page 247. They are like mine. There is a four digit serial number on the left side of the receiver as pictured in Jan Stills "Third Reich Lugers" on page 191-2. If front of that number is a pretty much indistiguishable proof mark. The first character looks like a lazy 'U'. The other two characters I can't make out. The front of the frame of the frame has the proper serial number and a lightly marked "ODIN ALEX VA and GERMANY" just below the serial number. The grips are not numbered, but other wise are nice. The bore is great. The aluminum bottomed magazine has a proof mark of an eagle with either a '63' or a '65'. The spine is blued and crimped. Light freckling rust all over the gun, but that is expected. The strawing held up good at about 85%. I would like it if others who have Siamese LP-08's would compare theirs with mine. Maybe we can even find the matching mags. Big Norm

09-23-2005, 03:19 PM	#3
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Big Norm, At page 90 of my book you can see the Siamese LP08 number 3511v with his unmatched stock number 3475. The picture shows the left frame and you can easily see the serial numbers and the Crown/Crown U on the receiver. The stock doesn't show the Mauser Banner although some Siamese models are reported with this. I hope this helps. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-25-2005, 05:03 AM	#6
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Big Norm, The Siamese Artillery presented in my book belongs to Paul Regnier. He is a Swiss dealer. Actually he has a web site therefore you can try to contact him. I have all his coordinates if you need to contact him in Switzerland. Look at his web site: http://www.luger-genesis.ch/index.html Cheers, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-25-2005, 10:42 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Big Norm, Congratulations on acquiring a really scarce Luger. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. I appreciate reading the details and learning yet another bit of Luger lore. Almost 50 years of collecting and I am still learning. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-26-2005, 09:15 AM	#15
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Maybe this can help the discussion: http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/37thai1.htm __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

09-23-2005, 09:17 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Norm, I have 3519v with a matching mag marked with "+" and E/63. Like yours, my stock is numbered on the wood but is a mismatch, 3501. All parts on my pistol match with the exception of the rear sight which is numbered 89, witness mark is also a hair off. My Siamese has no rust or pitting but an overall "jungle"appearance sort of a dull worn look high lighted by the usual silver metal exposure at the muzzel and on the side plate The proof appears to be a horizontal "U" with two crowns above it...one above the other. From what I've read and heard, original production was limited to one hundred LP08s and Odin imported fewer than seventy-five. That being the case, I think they are one of the most undervalued artilleries around. I bought mine from Sarco with the stock about five years ago for $1200.

09-24-2005, 04:57 PM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	George, is your barrel numbered to the gun? Since my barrel is unnumbered and not proofed, I wonder if the barrels were replaced? I keep thinking of the Dutch West Indies Lugers that the climate messed up and the fact that most of them were rebarreled and dated as to when they were rebarreled. My bore looks very good. I'll put your guns serial number on my watch list of mags that I keep an eye out for. So far I have gun numbers 3519V and 3540V and have to look for magazine number 3541V (your mag matches) and stock number 3519V (my stock matches). With the small number of Siamese artilleries out there we might have have a slim chance of finding something. Maybe we could contact Sam Buscemi. He had a Siamese artillery for sale a few months ago. Maybe he still has it. Mauro, it is too bad that I don't know who has the gun in your book. If that person was receptive to working out a deal, then we could add him to our search list. John Walters book "The Luger Book" page 246, says that Odin sold only 62 Siamese artillery Lugers in the serial range of 3453 and 3551. A Mr J.D. Rousseau, who is a big Luger collector in Alaska and a friend of Jan Stills and who has many Lugers pictured in Jans "Third Reich Lugers" book, told me that the holsters for these guns had pretty well rotted away and were disposed of. So there isn't any sense on looking for them. Big Norm

09-24-2005, 07:41 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hey Norm, Maybe Rousseau just tells other guys that so they will stop looking and he will continue to buy all the nice ones up...

09-25-2005, 06:56 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, your getting suspicious of people in your old age. I don't really know Mr. Rousseau, but I did talk to him at the recent OGCA show. He had a beautiful 1915 artillery holster for sale for $1500. He seemed like a genuine, real nice guy and our conversation was very good. He said that he had some 200 plus guns and I kidded him about having that many treasures in a state that is known for its earth quakes. One good quake and all that treasure vanishes. POOF! I asked him how he accumulated so many Lugers in a state that is so far out of the gun collecting loop and he started rattling off all the high level gun shows that are so often mentioned on this forum. But I was very tired from my long drive to the show and I wanted to get back home to see the Michigan State/Notre Dame football game that was on TV that I didn't talk to him as much as I wanted to. Personally, in the gentleman class, I would rank him right up there with John Martz. Of course, John Martz is still number one though. Oh, by the way, the MSU/Notre dame football game was a great game but I had to listen to it on my car radio off of the Notre Dame station. Next week MSU plays UofM and I WILL be home to see THAT game. Big Norm

09-25-2005, 07:09 AM	#8
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Mauro, thank you for giving us Mr Regnier's web site. I will look at it when I finish this little note. I hope that his web site is in English. But, if Mr. Regnier is a dealer, then he probably has sold the Siamese artillery Luger by now. Big Norm

09-25-2005, 08:17 AM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Norm, the barrel on my Siamese LP08 is just like yours, unnumbered.

09-25-2005, 09:03 AM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I am told by authorities like Michael Krause, that most Mauser banner commercial pieces (especially police variations), except for a few contract pieces, were shipped from the factory WITHOUT serial numbers under the barrel, but just had groove and land dimensions.

09-25-2005, 02:23 PM	#12
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	dbbuster, nope, there aren't ANY markings on the barrel. George Anderson probably is finding the same thing. The front sight on an artillery Luger normally has a two digit serial number on it, but mine doesn't. The rear sight normally has two digits on it in a number of places, but mine only has it on one place and that two digit number does not correspond to my gun. So someone did a sloppy job in rebarreling these guns. But that is something that MIGHT be considered normal on these weapons. More input to my post MIGHT confirm that. I am not telling the world (forum) about the deficiencies on my gun to down grade the gun. I am doing this to inform people about what they should expect as normal for this particular weapon. All the books that I have read indicate that one should not expect an all matching, 'mint' gun when they buy a Siamese Luger. The same would probably be true for a Dutch West Indies Luger. But Dutch West Indies Lugers are not my thing. I would assume that the same condition would exist on a shorter barreled P-08. I showed my gun to Ken Karsted and he informed me that someone gave him a P-08 Siamese Luger for restoration. Ken is an excellent restorer of Lugers. Oh Man! That person just destroyed the collectablity of that particular Luger just to have something pretty. Actually, I have heard simular experiences on the Persian artillery Luger. When the Persian artillery was packaged for export, the magazines and stocks were just thrown separately in a box and shipped out. No care was given to match up the stocks and the magazines to the guns. They were just guns to be exported. They were not considered to be anything collectible or valuable. So it would be luck to find a Persian artillery with a matching stock and/or magazine. Possible, but still luck. Big Norm

09-25-2005, 02:27 PM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Ron, thank you for the compliment. Coming from someone that I consider to be a knowledgeable expert, such as I do you, really means something to me. I still consider my find to be a prize. Actually, I had an option to buy this gun or a 1914 DWM artillery with good, original blue, unit marks and in pretty good shape, but no matching mag. The price was pretty steep so I opted for the Siamese Luger. Only time will tell if I made the right choice. Big Norm

09-26-2005, 09:08 AM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Norm, my Persian artillery, which is a contemporary of the Siamese, shares the same lack of barrel markings. Unlike the Siamese, it has no serial number on the rear sight. Check your PMs.

09-10-2006, 08:49 PM	#16
lew1 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,108 Thanks: 82 Thanked 204 Times in 112 Posts	I have two of them. One I purchased back when they came into the country. The other I picked up yesterday. 3464v matches except there is no number on the barrel or front sight. The rear sight has numbers, which do not match the pistol serial number. One of the grips is numbered (but not to the pistol) and proofed. The other grip is not proofed or numbered, yet they are in the same condition which would indicate that they have been together for many tears. The finish is not too hot and very little strawing is found. 3490v also matches except there is no number on the barrel or front sight. The rear sight has numbers, which do not match the pistol serial number. Neither of the grips are numbered or proofed. The grips are in the same condition which would indicate that they have been together for many tears. The finish is much better that the first one and the strawing is better, though I would say that there is not much left. __________________ charlie