1914 erfurt artillery value?

[sturmluger]

How much is a 1914 (re-blued, re-strawed) Erfurt artillery luger with 2 repro. mags worth? It appears to have matching numbers, but not sure if they're authentic though. Also, the mags fall out when trying to fire it. I've been told $800 and $20 each for the 2 repro mags on another forum by a user named "weimar police". I would like to get several opinions if possible because the owner insist it's worth more than $2k? I'm looking to purchase my first luger and don't want to make that newbie mistake. Thank you very much.

[Tomathvl]

As George stated on the other forum, it depends on the quality of the restoration. Look at the photos on Ted Green's site and if the 1914 looks like Ted's work or Bill Adair also does rework then the 1914 may be worth in the $2000 range. If it's been reblued by a local gunsmith the chances of it having been done correctly are not good. Some photos would get you a good answer.
Tom

http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/

http://www.restoration-gunsmith.com/

[Edward Tinker]

I commented on the other forum also, and although a pretty gun is nice, an original one will go up in value more. That said, a good restoration rather than a reblue makes a world of difference.

Personally, I would rather pay extra for a reasonable looking original one as my first artillery (and that said, my only arty is a reblue )...


Ed

[Big Norm]

The above advice is good, but I would do some research on prices first. The sellers comment about this arty being worth $2000 doesn't count. He has a vested interest in the sale of this gun. If your instincts tell you that that the serial numbers don't look right, then assume that you are correct and you should take a walk. Mistakes on Lugers can be very expensive. There will be other artilleries, so don't be in a hurry. Watch the FGS and Simpson websites to get the hang of prices and quality. Both these dealers prices are on the high side, but their Lugers are pretty good. Then watch the various websites such as gunbroker or auctionarms and their price ranges. It won't be long before you feel confident with your offer on an artillery.

Look at other Lugers (not just artilleries) and become familiar with serial number lettering sizes. Altering serial numbers on Lugers is common. Watch for locations of the serial numbers. I believe that a 1914 Erfurt artillery will have a two digit serial number on the base of the front top blade sight (left side). The rear sight should have a two digit serial number on three different visable locations. (On the side of the slider, on the rear of the rear blade and on the distance marker).

The fact that the magazines fall out while shooting the gun tells me that maybe something is wrong with the magazine catch. Maybe you are getting a message that other things are wrong with this particular weapon. I don't think that $2000 is an acceptible price for what may be a restored shooter.
Big Norm
___________________
Reality is eternal punishment for a perfectionist.

[sturmluger]

thanks for the info. I've shared your appreciated info. with the seller. He's came down to $1500 now. I'm still kickin it around a bit.

[Tomathvl]

Myke,
This should give a point of reference. If it doesn't look like this restoration, I'd pass on it @ $1500.
Tom

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=15592

[Big Norm]

I think that $800 for a repro mag is totally out of the question. What makes the seller think that his repro is worth that much? A good, original, navy mag might go in the $300-400 range. A good repro mag on the internet or at a good local gun store with be in the $20-30 area.

While the restoration and the size and location of the serial numbers are serious considerations, the situation that the mags are falling out of the gun while firing is more serious. The gun MUST function properly first. It ain't much good if you can't shoot it. So consideration towards an inspection period is necessary. Also, is there anything the seller demands like a "restocking fee" upon return? How reputable is this dealer? Will he actually give you back your money? I have had sellers tell me that they would and then refuse to take the gun back. Or that they would, but at a greatly reduced price.
Big Norm

[sturmluger]

I went ahead and got the luger. Not sure who restored it, but I looked it over and it is very clean inside and out. I also compared it to the restores that are for reference in this thread. It looks just as good and better than one of the examples. Whoever restored went all out on it. I will post pics later on and let you guys tell me what you think about it. I didn't pay any cash for it. I traded a colt ar-15 match target and a gibson sg guitar for it and he threw in a cheap .25 and ww1 and a ww2 iron cross medals that used to be mine. At any rate I think I did ok. Also, he threw in and old mag that looks old but has no markings on it. By the time I sell the extras that I received from him, I will hopefully have around $1100 in it.

[sturmluger]

Ok heres the pics finally, sorry you had to wait, tell me what you think bad or good, a little dust on it here and there, also what is a dead give away that this gun is reblued and how can you tell its refinished? even if a guy is really good at reblueing? Thank you very much -mike

[John Sabato]

This gun has been refinished, but is in nice shape for a shooter class gun. The mags are new Mecgars and are worth about $30 each new...

The gun may be worth about $1300-1400... Would need closer photos of all serial numbers to determine if it has been force matched or is originally matching... that might raise the price a hundred or so...

[sturmluger]

how can you tell by looking at the numbers? and how can you tell when a gun has been reblued?

[George Anderson]

From the limited photos I can tell you that the side plate is not original to the pistol if the pistol is indeed an Erfurt. An Erfurt sideplate from 1914 would have a very obvious acceptance stamp on it near the serial number. Photos of the top showing the toggle train and sights might help in a further evaluation but keep in mind that nothing compares to a hands-on inspection.

[Big Norm]

George is absolutely correct about the proof mark on the side plate. The proof mark would be in front of the two digit serial number and the same size as the fourth proof proof mark on the right side of the receiver. I can see a serial number on the rear sight that, with some very close eye balling by me, looks like the proper two digit number. That suggests that the weapon has NOT been rebarreled. While there is a serial number on the rear sights slider and in the proper location, I could not make it out.

The Locking Bolt has been poorly restrawed and lotsa metal has been removed. The grips look nice. Look under them the see if you can find a two digit serial number and an Erfurt proof mark. Be careful though. It is easy to break off the little finger at the top right just under the safety. The wood is pretty old and dry. Remove the mags and, very gently, pop the grips off from the inside.

Lets see, is there anything else. OH NO!!!!! Not a Gibson guitar!!!!!! Three years ago, I sold a Harmony for $1200. It even had a melted rest on it. I did throw in three picks to seal the deal though. And that was before I got onto Ebay. I don't know about your guitar, but in the era of my guitar, the Gibson was the better guitar. Oh well, now you have a real neat and classy Luger to shoot yourself in the foot with.
Big Norm

[sturmluger]

I paid around $800 for the Gibson on ebay and gigged heavily with it. It's definately no collectors piece being a 1 in a million newer utility guitar. I wanted to upgrade it with something newer like a '61 reissue. I've been a hardcore vintage guitar collector for many years selling, trading, and buying with everyone across the world including The Beach Boys. If you have any questions about any of your guitars send me a pic and I can price it or authenticate it for you. The Ar-15, I paid 575.00 for it and sold the scope off it for 110.00 so I had 465.00 into it. That makes close to touching 1300.00. He threw in these two iron cross medals from both world wars and a raven .25. I sold the .25 for what will amount to around $75. After I trade the medals off I should have around $1100 or a little less into it. I figured that it did probably have an issue or two besides the reblue but from what I've studied on the auction sites I was comfortable with what I had into it. I've been eyeing lugers for a while because I like to collect German war fodder. Something about these guns lured me in and I'm not really a gun guy. I wouldn't mind getting a luger thats a honest and solid piece. I will hopefully get you guys to authenticate it for me before I pay any real money for one. I just wanted to get the ball rolling with this one being it was in my neighborhood already. I already ordered a case for it from uniquecanes.com and want to get one of those shoulder stocks for 129.00 that will fit neatly into the case and shoot it a few times here and there. I'd like to get a nazi marked luger and a marked p-38 also.
Back to the gun.. How can you tell it's been reblued? I would like to know when I pick up a luger how to tell right away it's been reblued? THank you very much -mike

[Big Norm]

Mike,
I hope that you don't think that I was knocking your deal. I was just joking around.

There are as many ways to detect a restored gun as there are restorers. First of all, if the gun is 99% but the barrel is pitted, you got a reblued gun. Then, the WW1 guns are almost 100 years old. To find a "mint" military gun would be very, very rare and priced accordingly. Its not that hard to find a very good commercial Luger. They haven't been through the weather that the soldiers of WW1 went through and subsequent time. The Lugers of WW2 can sometimes be found in pretty good shape. They were taken by GI's off of prisoners as trophies shortly after the prisoners were captured or killed.
With that said, the WW1 Lugers have a distictive blue/black rust bluing that was common among all of them. The restored guns will look like they have a BLACK rust bluing and maybe the gloss might be different. Try to go to a big time dealer like Doug Smith or Simpson and compare the colors in good light and you will see. A good Luger collector like George Anderson, and others here, can spot a restoration pretty fast.
The Lugers of the Wiemar and Nazi eras will have many different types of bluing. Talking off of the top of my head, I think that there were six different types of bluing from salt blue to rust blue. Its a long story and too long to cover here. Especially since I am predominately a WW1 Luger collector.
Then there are the machine marks. The machine marks made during the shaping of the raw Luger parts will be constant for each of the eight different manufacturers of the Luger. But will be different between them. This is why many collectors will specialize in one or two of the different manufactures or eras of Lugers.
The size and other characteristics of the lettering, proof marks and serial numbers are a VERY strong indication of a restored gun. Before a Luger is restored, the old bluing must be removed. There are basically two different methods of restoring the bluing on a Luger, buffing and acid dipping. Buffing is the worst but easiest way of removing the old bluing. The buffing removes or dulls the machine marks mentioned above and will destroy the chrispness of the lettering, proof marks and serial numbers. On a "mint" Luger, the marking will sorta just jump out at you. Buffing will also will destroy what is called a plumb (spelling?) that occurs around the edges of certain parts that are stamped after the new gun was originally blued. When a part is stamped, the stamping creates a small wave along the outside edge of the stamp. This is the plumb and buffing will remove that plumb. You have to learn which markings will be stamped in before the original blue is applied and which are applied after the original blue is applied.
Acid dipping is the hardest but best way to prep a gun for restoring. But it takes talent and patience to do that right. Most restores don't have the talent or the patience. They are in it for the quick buck. There is probably has a bit of danger involved too since you are dealing with acid. There also might be a small amount of buff required after and acid dip to remove small rust pits. That requires talent.
Strawing is another thing that requires talent. The old strawing must be removed. The old oxidized metal must also be removed. You have to get down the bare metal. That requires talent too. That is why I mentioned the sloppy work done on the 'Locking Bolt' of your gun. A good restorer would never have removed that much metal. That part is a small and odd shaped part, so an amateur has an excellent chance of screwing up. Your restorer screwed up on that part. On a personal level, that is one of the first things that I look at when I look at a Luger that I am thinking about buying.
Then there is the out and out counterfeiting of a relatively inexpensive Luger to make it into a more expensive Luger. It would take a big book to cover this topic. Too long a subject to cover here. In my earlier comment about the sights on your artillery Luger, I mentioned serial marking on the sights and their approximate location. I was not trying to make myself look phony. Many times a P-08 is rebarreled to make it look like a LP-08. A counterfeiter will usually screw up on the sights because the sights are also numbered to the gun. These numbers are hard to change because of their location and because of their size. Check what I said earlier about the location on the front and rear sights of the serial numbers. They MUST BE THERE on a 1914 Erfurt artillery. They may or may not be there on later artilleries, depending in the chamber date. There were changes on different chamber dated artillery Lugers during manufacturing. And sometimes the manufacturer screwed up during transition from one chamber date to another. But the 1914 DWM and Erfurt and the 1915 DWM (maybe the 1916 too) manufacturing specs were the same. The 1914 Erfurt government inspectors just went a little further in their inspection marks than did the DWM commercial inspectors. That is why you will see the Erfurt proof marks on the grip screws and not on the DWM grip screws. The inspectors at the government plant did a little more unnecessary work just to justify their jobs and maybe to avoid being pulled into the army during the war.

Another thing that might help you avoid making a mistake is for you to have a trusted friend look at the gun hands on. I think that George mentioned something about that in an earlier post. Too often people get so worked up about buying a Luger that they miss something obvious. Then they buy it and kick themselves when they get home after looking at it while in relaxed mode.

I could go further and further into teaching you a mere smidgin more about restorations, but I think that I have said enough to let you know that there is a heck of a lot to learn about counterfeit, bolstered and restored Lugers. I would have to write a rather long book to cover these subjects and even then I would not be able to cover them all. I am sure that even what I wrote didn't cover every thing. But it will give you a start. I hope that this helps. But its time for me to go to bed. Good Night!
Big Norm

[sturmluger]

No offence taken. I appreciate the information from you and others here on the forum. I appreciate the amount of time you give to teach others. It looks that mistakes in Luger trading can be very costly. I've been really drawn into Lugers and will probably have more questions. I stayed up till 4:30 in the morning last night studying lugers, their proofs, manufacturing, and history. I studied a little on reblueing techniques. I wanted to get another Luger that was all square and there. But, now I think I want to find a good beater for around $600 so I can take it apart and play with it without fear of ruining it. Why are the lugers made between the wars by the Jewish co. "Simson" seem inexpensive? Is it because the weren't really war related? Or maybe because people are anti-semetic? Are they lower quality or just plain not cool?

[thegundude]

Originally posted by sturmluger
I wanted to get another Luger that was all square and there. But, now I think I want to find a good beater for around $600 so I can take it apart and play with it without fear of ruining it.

Keep you eyes peeled to this site (For Sale section) and you'll find one eventually. It might even be an all matching gun, perhaps a 1920 commercial that's still all original, if a bit worn. I got my first Luger here for five bills that's a seventy percent, all matching 1939 42 Code, do you just never know. Also keep you eye on GunBroker and AuctionArms too. The deals are out there but you just have to keep a wad of cash available and keep your ears to the ground. Good luck...

Originally posted by sturmluger
Why are the lugers made between the wars by the Jewish co. "Simson" seem inexpensive? Is it because the weren't really war related? Or maybe because people are anti-semetic? Are they lower quality or just plain not cool?

Have you seen Simsons that were cheap? Hey now, help a brotha' out and let me know where....

[Navy]

I seldom find Simpsons, much less inexpensive ones.

Tom A

[Edward Tinker]

Originally posted by thegundude


Have you seen Simsons that were cheap? Hey now, help a brotha' out and let me know where....

As my friend Tom said, no, you don't see them. That said, I have bought 3 this year 2 were "normal" price 2K+ and one WAS cheap... One was a reblue, but from a long time ago, the other two were well used. That said, it is hard to find correct / not messed with Simson's in really nice shape. They were used hard and used hard. They came into being while many imperial guns were hidden, used in schools throughout the weimar period, then used throughout WW2 and then 60+ years have passed. Any example is nice to have.


Ed

[thegundude]

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
Any example is nice to have.


Ed

No joke! I'd love to add one to my collection but lack the 2K+ to do so.

A Kreig would be nice too, while I'm already dreaming...