Haenel Magazine 16/20 round

[Germanpistolman]

Does any collector in the LugerForum recognize this illustrated magazine in the photographs which was recently unearthed in Germany.

It has not been confirmed if it is a 16 or 20 round magazine. But it has what we believe to be the Haenel 122 number marked a the bottom of the tube. Is it possible that this could have been a prototype or what? The Wood bottom is angled and is not known if it is original to the mag or not.

[John Sabato]

This is an extruded type 122 Haenel 8 round magazine (similar to the FXO type) with a homemade wooden bottom. The original bottom was either bakelite or aluminum. IMHO worth about half what a good condition magazine of this type is worth because it has been modified and it is rusty.

[Edward Tinker]

On Jan Stills forum

16 round magazine that George Fortier owned or used to

A blued one another member knows of or owns

Pete states

Old photo on page 391 of Kenyon's book, LAR, show such a magazine and a special holster with long magazine pouch in the Swiss style. That magazine has some "spline" about mid-way down the metal tube. Noted in Carl Wilson's collection at time of book issuance.

Fred Datig's old Swiss Monograph's booklet has the same (or similar) extended magazine with Swiss looking leather, etc. Called Swiss experimentals.

and I have an extended P38 mag

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

This is an extruded type 122 Haenel 8 round magazine (similar to the FXO type) with a homemade wooden bottom. The original bottom was either bakelite or aluminum. IMHO worth about half what a good condition magazine of this type is worth because it has been modified and it is rusty.

John,
I thought it had been well established that Haenel mags are not
"extruded", but welded and then machined?

[John Sabato]

Sorry Don, I am not aware of such "established" thought. I think modern manufacture of these magazines is one of GT's back burner projects, and believe that he is also of the mind that they are extruded.

Unless I see some credible evidence to the contrary, my machinist/gunsmith background experience believes these are extruded, with forged feed lips... If I am mistaken, I would love to know how they are/were actually fabricated. Do you have a reference? Thanks, -John

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Sorry Don, I am not aware of such "established" thought. I think modern manufacture of these magazines is one of GT's back burner projects, and believe that he is also of the mind that they are extruded.

Unless I see some credible evidence to the contrary, my machinist/gunsmith background experience believes these are extruded, with forged feed lips... If I am mistaken, I would love to know how they are/were actually fabricated. Do you have a reference? Thanks, -John

Yes,
I'll find it and post the reference. May be a thread here or the other forum!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Sorry Don, I am not aware of such "established" thought. I think modern manufacture of these magazines is one of GT's back burner projects, and believe that he is also of the mind that they are extruded.

Unless I see some credible evidence to the contrary, my machinist/gunsmith background experience believes these are extruded, with forged feed lips... If I am mistaken, I would love to know how they are/were actually fabricated. Do you have a reference? Thanks, -John

John,
found it, in of all places- Goertz and Sturgess.
In the Green book pp 1487 to 1499.
"Haenel-Schmeisser Magazines Not "Extruded", on the next page are drawings of how the magazine is/was constructed.

Basically it is folded around a mandrel and then welded up the seam which is center back of the magazine.

The extended magazine in question is shown on p 1499 with a patent drawing.

[LU1900]

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat72_P.txt

[G.T.]

Hi to all, Well, the fxo / code 122 magazines are made so well, that it is hard to definitively say how they were all made throughout the wartime period??..... All pretty much agree that there was welding, forming, and machining.... but at which stage each operation was performed in, is still somewhat of a mystery... (I have not read the above links yet, so this is mostly opinion!) From my early attempts to reverse engineer the process, I came to the following conclusions... In order to get the shape and thickness necessary for the robust feedlips, and the follower guide ribs, I think the magazine blank was first die stamped, then machined, then formed and then welded down the back spine, and ground outside. And probably cleaned up inside as well, maybe, maybe not? As it might have not been needed?.... Then, it was again machined as necessary for secondary operations, such as slots, holes, feed lips and such....
Now it has been surmised, that at/by the end of the war... all the above was accomplished by using "Cold drawn formed tubing techniques which I had looked into having done by an aerospace tubing supplier... they said they could hold plus or minus .003" on all dimensions.... BUT, I would then have to hot forge the feedlips to get the desired thickness and offset, to be a proper reproduction of the above magazine types... I never got past this point, as it just wasn't feasible for me tooling wise?... The term of "extrusion" was tacked on because of the common process known to us all, of using a dedicated shape die, and having hot metal pushed through!... but, they don't usually try to extrude shapes down to the tolerances needed for the magazine... Hence, the cold drawn term.... Now the clue that tells me that it could have been cold drawn is on some tubes you will see a slight washboard effect, and the cause of this is usually, and can be attributed to, the lack of lubricant use during the drawing process??.... Those Germans were pretty clever, and the cold drawn process was certainly a useful process when used for the items mentioned... best to all, til...lat'r....GT...

[DonVoigt]

GT,
Better to read the description of the process. I would copy it, but the CD is copy/image protected and I respect the author's work and desire to keep copying to a minimum. A set of CD's is only $30 or so from Simpsons, and well worth it for +/- 1800 beautiful pages !

If you are referring to a "wash board" effect on the rear of the magazine, it is apparently from the welding process - sometimes it is a clear "design" for lack of a better description.

[G.T.]

Hi Don, I will certainly read the process as described?... But, the chatter I have observed is on the magazine sides, not the rear spine?... I think late in the war, one or both processes were used in conjunction with each other... because, the long fxo magazine tubes that are for 15 or 16 rounds are long and straight and it would be almost impossible to die form this length consistently?... But, I will study harder and see what is documented and also what others might think about the processes outlined above... to be truthful, it is really hard to tell by inspecting the mags themselves??... Ahhh! another challenge.... best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

A set of CD's is only $30 or so from Simpsons

It's one DVD and is/was $35 + $15 S&H.

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

John,
found it, in of all places- Goertz and Sturgess.
In the Green book pp 1487 to 1499.
"Haenel-Schmeisser Magazines Not "Extruded"
The extended magazine in question is shown on p 1499 with a patent drawing.

Is the 'Green book' the one that was objected to by the authors for extensive 'editing' and replaced with the 'Red book'??? I have the Red book DVD and could not find your quoted text or the patent drawing of the extended magazine.

There is extensive discussion of the Haenel-Schmeisser magazines on pgs 1298-1313 of the DVD but no extended pics/patent drawing. Perhaps left out of 'new' edition???

There is a description of how the H-S mags were folded & welded/ground.

[DonVoigt]

Rich,
I'm not sure which came first Red or Green!

It is exasperating that the order and pages are changed from one to the other.

You can just use the index and find the drawing on P 1303 of the red book !

Seems everyone here is from Missouri, so here is the picture.

It was actually published in the "Deutsches Waffen-Journal" in 1979 by Victor Leick, who had first hand experience in building the magazines.

If one reads the whole story, you find that the feed lips are pressed into the body blank before folding! Clever. The body is profiled by milling, grinding, and polishing before finish.

[sheepherder]

OK, under Chapter 22 - Dead Ends and Curiosa, first page there is a patent drawing of a Simson extended magazine, but it is quite different than the one being addressed by the OP. The Simson extended mag has a telescoping jacket and follower. It states it was originally designed for the MP18.

Under 'Swiss Prototype Stocks', chapter 19 - Accessories, are shown several [small] pics of the Swiss 16-shot extended magazines, which look like long P08 magazines, no jacket or special checkering.

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Rich,
I'm not sure which came first Red or Green!

IIRC the 'Green' was first, Red second. And only the 'Red' was approved by the authors, too much editing/liberty taken with the 'Green' edition.

Edit: Norm was kind enough to explain the differences in thread -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=29036

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Rich, The "Green Edition" is titled "Pistole Parabellum" by Joachim Görtz and Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess and was published in 2010 by Collector Grade Publications Inc., a Canadian company. Dr Sturgess took violent objection to the editing and a law suit ensued (Joachim Görtz died before the book came out). The "Red Edition" is dated 2011 and is titled "The Borchardt and Luger Automatic Pistols" and was published by Brad Simpson. Dr. Sturgess appears to be satisfied with this edition because he hasn't, to my knowledge, sued the publisher.
Regards, Norm

Pic of both attached. Different titles as well as different colors.

BTW: If you want to see what Mauser finally came up with to compete against the Luger in the 1907 Trials, search for 'second pattern Mauser 06/08 pistols' (on pg 1500 of the Red DVD)...That is one very pretty Luger look-alike!

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Germanpistolman

It has not been confirmed if it is a 16 or 20 round magazine.

Compared to the pics in TBLAP of the Swiss 16rd extended magazines, the CMR mag is nowhere near 16 (or 20) round capacity.

[G.T.]

Hi Don, Thanks for the picture on the fabrication sequence... annnnd, it is pretty much just what I said?? ..........Except.. I would still have to believe the magazine was milled when the blank was flat as I surmised, rather then formed, welded and then machined?.... From a manufacturing standpoint, it is a lot easier to control tolerances on a flat surface then on a thin radius... I wish I had a 105 year old German machinist to ask?.... ... best to all, til...lat'r....GT

BTW, 16 rounds is the very outside max you could ever go on a straight Luger magazine, 15 would even be more reliable?... ... even the drums start to curve at round number 13 to 15...... Don't ask me how I know, but ... I do....

[Edward Tinker]

Green was made in Canada, and Geoff did not like the way the editor changed his wording, and many of the headers were humorous sounding. I do not think Geoff appreciated the humor, I would not liked it

Simpson produced book is marked Simpson, LTD and is only one with a DVD...

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Don, Thanks for the picture on the fabrication sequence... annnnd, it is pretty much just what I said?? ..........Except.. I would still have to believe the magazine was milled when the blank was flat as I surmised, rather then formed, welded and then machined?.... From a manufacturing standpoint, it is a lot easier to control tolerances on a flat surface then on a thin radius... I wish I had a 105 year old German machinist to ask?.... ... best to all, til...lat'r....GT

BTW, 16 rounds is the very outside max you could ever go on a straight Luger magazine, 15 would even be more reliable?... ... even the drums start to curve at round number 13 to 15...... Don't ask me how I know, but ... I do....

Well GT,
You would just likely surmise wrong. When you read the discussion and information, it is related by a guy who what there, you will be convinced.

Can you imagine machining first, and then trying to "bend" around the mandrel to a close tolerance? I can't.

I can easily imagine the use of shaped miling cutters for each side; milling the the width of a side; the back and/or the curve of the front by milling or grinding.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Can you imagine machining first, and then trying to "bend" around the mandrel to a close tolerance? I can't.

I can easily imagine the use of shaped miling cutters for each side; milling the the width of a side; the back and/or the curve of the front by milling or grinding.

My vote is with machining/grinding after forming. I can envision a hot forged piece, which could potentially add forge welding to the mix, as well as form the lips. Wait...basically this same mag was made post-war, right? So maybe we don't need the machinist to be quite that old. So much of this stuff gets lost...

[G.T.]

Hi Don, The book may very well be correct? But also, the guy who was there, source... maybe wasn't the guy who did the work, because... if you really think about it? It would be super easy to clamp the flat (on the thicker feed lips, pre-formed!) and machine every vertical dimension with a horizontal mill! They could down mill all in one shot!
And then as a result, die form the now thinner , and also edge indexed flat? It would actually improve forming and bending to 100% accuracy, which would aid and allow the then 100% aligned back spine joint, which it must have been to get the quality weld they achieved........... In this case, I'm not in agreement with the book, (any book!) but, we can agree to disagree until we gear up to make some! ... We will find out soon enough when we get to that point! Either way, you can't get anyone to remake the mag shells using the original technique?... I've tried...
Now for the curve ball, It is possible to grind the mag shells into final dimension, but they would be better finished many times over just on the reduction to dimension... Think about it, you can do it in one shot, Or, you can re-chuck and re cut as many as five or six times to machine into tolerance... Although, I must submit, they were German! And as such, no amount of machine operations were out of bounds..... ... best to all, til...lat'r....GT....

BTW, David, they were most definitely die formed no matter what the sequence... every one perfectly formed to with in probably .003" max!!!
BTW squared, you might be right on the forging? I never got past that point, but the East German mags were sub quality when compared to the war time items??... Lots more to learn!