Appraisals, Information, & Etc (Long)

Marvin · 03-23-2002, 06:34 AM

I have just finished reading some of the posts on the Forum and was very disappointed in one, in particular. I would hope that we would not stoop to personal attacks on this Forum and this posting has come to that very edge! I personaly feel the post concerning the dealings with Tom Heller was NOT justified on this Forum and it looks, smells, and walks like a personal attack. I don't know if this situation happened, it is none of my business and I feel the two parties should settle any differences between themselves. I have know Tom for a number of years and found that he has always been completely honest in his descriptions, fair in his pricing (as with any dealer, if I don't like the price, I don't have to buy), and usually, better condition than described.

I just feel that a rebuttal had to be posted about this because there are many new Forum readers that may get the wrong idea about Tom and I want to set this straight. If anyone has a problem with Tom's merchandise, he will rectify the situation to your satisfaction without resorting to name calling on a public Forum. If this was a constant problem I may be able to understand, but when there has only been one (1) complaint, I feel it is totally unjustified. As to Appraisals, YES, I would trust Tom to give me a true and honest appraisals even if it was one of his pistols. I don't know everything about Lugers and have never pretended that I do, but I do read and try to investigate before buying something that is new to me. If a pistol is priced much lower that the normal value, I ask certain questions like, "is it Import Marked", before I make the deal! An import marked pistol will be less money than a non stamped one and the price will refelct that usually.

YES, we all need to buy books and read them and yes, there are probably a few errors in the books and the authors acknowlege that this was the best know information at the time. Whrn new information comea to light, they do their best to let people know. Most of these authors belong to NAPCA and this is where new information is first know before it is common knowledge. The authors have spent a lot of money and time to make this information available to us collectors so we can enjoy our toys and be able to know the differences in the variations. Yes, I beleive what they have to say until they are proven wrong. Buy books and read them, understand the information presented, and until new information is presented as correct, we use the current information as a Standard. Yes, there are variations to every rule and Lugers are definetly no exception to this rule.

I apoligize for this long posting, but I just felt that the personal attack on a gentleman who helps all of us out with parts, pistols, and INFORMATION, should not have to be subject to this. Personal attacks should be held to the individuals involved and not on this Forum. This is my opinion and I stand by it!

Marvin

03-23-2002, 08:12 AM

Marvin, Thanks for your kind comments. Anything that I sell is subject to the buyer's inspection and approval or money back. Here's an extreme example from years ago in San Francisco: I had sold a matching collector grade LPO8 to a newbie at a gunshow. He confronted me at the next show, without ever contacting me before, with shouts that the serial number (actually assembly #) under the front sight did not match the rest of the serials on the Artillery. I tried in vain, to explain that this was not in fact a serial number and should not match, to no avail. The only way that I could quite him down an resolve this misinformation (one of his friends told him that pistol was mismatched) was to offer him DOUBLE his money back if John Bush (whom we both knew & trusted) at the SF Gun Exchange, agreed with him. As I expected, this third party was able to calmly explain to him that all was correct. Unfortunately, his appology was much quieter than his outburst at the show, and not in public. Just part of the business, I guess. Tom Heller

G.T. · 03-23-2002, 08:17 AM

Frank · 03-23-2002, 08:57 AM

Tom has always tried his best to satisfy my needs, be it for Lugers, P.38's, Mausers, etc. Thanks!!

dgp42 · 03-23-2002, 11:18 AM

I too have had many conversations with Tom, and my wife and I visited him on a trip back East. All of my dealings with him have been positive and pleasant. I would highly recommend Tom to anyone on a business or personal level.

Orv Reichert · 03-23-2002, 12:27 PM

I would add my voice...I have known and dealt with Tom for 30 years. He has always been honest and straight with me.

Orv Reichert

Lonnie Zimmerman · 03-23-2002, 12:38 PM

I ordered some dipped magazines (P-38) from him and he didn"t have them, so he sent me original at no extra cost!! Can"t beat that! One was an E/88.

Lonnie

Thor · 03-23-2002, 02:07 PM

Tom Heller has saved my bacon more than once with gun parts. I needed some Luger parts and nobody else had them. He came through and they are always very very good parts. I needed a frame to go with a shooter and he had one that was the same make as my Luger upper. I CONSTANTLY ask him advice about other guns and take down methods and things he knows alot about. He is always very generous with his quick replies and he really gets nothing out of it for his time but a thank you. Tom is a good friend to me! ~Thor~

03-23-2002, 03:34 PM

This "hobby" of ours needs more people with the character and profesionalism Of Mr. Heller..........Leo

drbuster · 03-23-2002, 04:40 PM

I just purchased a 1900AE luger from Tom. Had no problems. The luger was better than advertised. I would deal with Tom anytime (and will!)

John D. · 03-23-2002, 04:58 PM

Marvin....

What a terrific post... You are absolutely right on target. Being a customer of Toms on many occasions, I will say that I mirror your sentiments. And no - I do not understand why folks on this forum feel free to post personal attacks. And yes - 99% of the time - there are two sides to the story.

In my personal experience with Tom - if he knew I was dissatisfied with any of the products I have purchased from him, I am more then confident then he would have taken his items back without a second thought. Such is the character of someone who stands behind his product and representations. My respect to you Tom for that....

Also - he is one of the few dealers who take an active interest in this Forum and helping out the newer folks amongst us. Our combined thanks for that, too Tom....

John D.

Don · 03-23-2002, 05:42 PM

I share all the positive feelings about Tom. I'm a newbie, and he has been infinitely fair and patient with me!

03-23-2002, 05:59 PM

I have never dealt personaly with Tom Heller, But according

to all of you he sounds like someone I would like to do some trading with in the future. ,Brandon

03-23-2002, 06:57 PM

We have known and dealt with Tom for many years. Although we may not be his biggest customer we have always found him very helpful and knowledgeable in our search for Luger parts. If he did not have what we were looking for he would share his resources with us or source our needs himself and contact us. The transactions were always quick and satisfactory, and because the items were better than described we have never had to ask for a return or refund, but feel confident that that would not be a problem.

To suggest he could be involved in a " scam" is an insult to his integrity and is slanderous. Whenever a newbie asks for parts information everyone on the forum will always recommend Tom. We think that speaks for itself.

Our opinion is that "Bill M" owes Tom an apology and if he doesn't, we will apologize for his rude remarks.

Tom, it's always a pleasure.

MikeP · 03-23-2002, 08:04 PM

Dang! I always miss out on the good snot throws--Had to back and read up.

If I was getting something for half price from a dealer I think I would realize there were more questions to be asked-unless I thought he was senile/stupid and I was trying to get over on him. In which case I would deserve to get burnt-which is not the case here.

03-23-2002, 08:40 PM

Yeezs Guys, You're making me blush. I've been away at a show, and completely missed this thread until now. Having customers & friends like you, makes my work a pleasure. Thanks, Tom h.

bill m · 03-23-2002, 09:19 PM

Marvin and all,

I was just going to let this lay and not comment, but then I figured that this deserves a reply. None of you know me, know what I have, or know whom I have dealt with. I admire your loyality, but in my opinion you should have just read the post and made your own assumptions. You want to always share information, but you never what to hear any of the negative information.

First, I do not consider this a personal attack. If I was to personally attack someone, I would come right out and tell them and all of you just what I thought and to never have anything to do with this guy again. I did not do that, and I have done business with this individual since this happened. I also stand by my statement that: Anyone that would have the same guy selling you the Luger appraise it, and authenticate it for you is asking to be taken. No one in any other business would ever think of doing such a thing, and it would be a great scam.

Secondly, none of you know the details of this transaction, so you really have no comment on what went on, only in what has happened in your own transactions. Negative feedback makes business's try harder, and to correct previous problems.

Thirdly, I have no intention to apologize for simply sharing what happened in my transaction. This was simply a bad transaction inwhich I returned the Lugers and got my money back and felt I was intentionally deceived as to the conditon in the hopes I wouldn't know any better. That is my opinion. I never received an apology for having to return the Lugers, so I do not feel one is deserved here. I was the guy dealing in good faith, the guy spending the money, and the guy loosing all the shipping.

Enough said as far as I'm concerned. Sincerly -- Bill Munis

John D. · 03-24-2002, 12:31 AM

Bill M. Wrote:

"Secondly, none of you know the details of this transaction, so you really have no comment on what went on.."

We were not commenting on your transaction - merely on our experience with Tom H. And how a combined "our" experience can be so radically different then yours - can only be left up to the readers own imagination.

As for an apology - if it was a "bad transaction" (your words), and you got your money back from Tom H. (a small detail you seem to have left out in your first post?) - what is to apologize for, Bill? Perhaps the omission in your comment that you got your $ back? I dunno... Again - perhaps the Forum readers can decide for themselves.

Yes, there are always two sides to an issue. Thanks for sharing more relevant details to "your side".

bill m · 03-24-2002, 01:27 AM

John,

Imagine what you want, but all transactions do not go smoothly. What works for some is not satisfactory for others.

As for the apology, one of the poster thought I should, for being rude, and had nothing to do with the money.

I never gave the impression my money was not returned. I said I returned the Lugers in my first post. The point being, I would not have wanted them if I was told exactly what they were to start with. You give me the impression that if you get your money back, anything and everything that happened suddenly doesn't matter, as it becomes acceptable? The money never was the issue with me, but rather the lack of essential information. I feel I've said enough on this, but just wanted to clear up a few of your assumptions.

John D. · 03-24-2002, 02:01 AM

Bill M. Wrote:

"...Imagine what you want.."

Ummm- I'm not "imagining" the posts I've read - you can see those, as well?

Bill M. Wrote:

>..and had nothing to do with the money.

Oh - I'm sorry - I must have misread your original post where you were upset at spending "money" on Lugers - I didn't realize you traded sheep or something else for them..?

Bill M. Wrote:

>I never gave the impression my money was not returned...

I thought you just said it that it "had nothing to do with the money"...????

Bill M. Wrote:

>...I would not have wanted them if I was told exactly what they were...

And being the well-informed "collector" - as we advise everyone on this Forum - of course you asked if they were import marked - or were you just looking for a non-import/original finished Luger at import prices? So you "assumed" - without asking? Hmmm......

Bill M. Wrote:

>I feel I've said enough on this, but just wanted to clear up a few of your assumptions.

I didn't "assume" anything. Apparently, you did, however.

Hope this helps - somehow.

03-23-2002, 06:34 AM	#1
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Appraisals, Information, & Etc (Long) I have just finished reading some of the posts on the Forum and was very disappointed in one, in particular. I would hope that we would not stoop to personal attacks on this Forum and this posting has come to that very edge! I personaly feel the post concerning the dealings with Tom Heller was NOT justified on this Forum and it looks, smells, and walks like a personal attack. I don't know if this situation happened, it is none of my business and I feel the two parties should settle any differences between themselves. I have know Tom for a number of years and found that he has always been completely honest in his descriptions, fair in his pricing (as with any dealer, if I don't like the price, I don't have to buy), and usually, better condition than described. I just feel that a rebuttal had to be posted about this because there are many new Forum readers that may get the wrong idea about Tom and I want to set this straight. If anyone has a problem with Tom's merchandise, he will rectify the situation to your satisfaction without resorting to name calling on a public Forum. If this was a constant problem I may be able to understand, but when there has only been one (1) complaint, I feel it is totally unjustified. As to Appraisals, YES, I would trust Tom to give me a true and honest appraisals even if it was one of his pistols. I don't know everything about Lugers and have never pretended that I do, but I do read and try to investigate before buying something that is new to me. If a pistol is priced much lower that the normal value, I ask certain questions like, "is it Import Marked", before I make the deal! An import marked pistol will be less money than a non stamped one and the price will refelct that usually. YES, we all need to buy books and read them and yes, there are probably a few errors in the books and the authors acknowlege that this was the best know information at the time. Whrn new information comea to light, they do their best to let people know. Most of these authors belong to NAPCA and this is where new information is first know before it is common knowledge. The authors have spent a lot of money and time to make this information available to us collectors so we can enjoy our toys and be able to know the differences in the variations. Yes, I beleive what they have to say until they are proven wrong. Buy books and read them, understand the information presented, and until new information is presented as correct, we use the current information as a Standard. Yes, there are variations to every rule and Lugers are definetly no exception to this rule. I apoligize for this long posting, but I just felt that the personal attack on a gentleman who helps all of us out with parts, pistols, and INFORMATION, should not have to be subject to this. Personal attacks should be held to the individuals involved and not on this Forum. This is my opinion and I stand by it! Marvin

03-23-2002, 08:12 AM	#2
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re:Customer satisfaction Marvin, Thanks for your kind comments. Anything that I sell is subject to the buyer's inspection and approval or money back. Here's an extreme example from years ago in San Francisco: I had sold a matching collector grade LPO8 to a newbie at a gunshow. He confronted me at the next show, without ever contacting me before, with shouts that the serial number (actually assembly #) under the front sight did not match the rest of the serials on the Artillery. I tried in vain, to explain that this was not in fact a serial number and should not match, to no avail. The only way that I could quite him down an resolve this misinformation (one of his friends told him that pistol was mismatched) was to offer him DOUBLE his money back if John Bush (whom we both knew & trusted) at the SF Gun Exchange, agreed with him. As I expected, this third party was able to calmly explain to him that all was correct. Unfortunately, his appology was much quieter than his outburst at the show, and not in public. Just part of the business, I guess. Tom Heller

03-23-2002, 08:17 AM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Thomas....you've always treated me fair!...for 20+ years! (EOM)

03-23-2002, 08:57 AM	#4
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Tom, Absolutely NO Complaints from here!! Tom has always tried his best to satisfy my needs, be it for Lugers, P.38's, Mausers, etc. Thanks!!

03-23-2002, 11:18 AM	#5
dgp42 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Calif. Coast Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Tom, Absolutely NO Complaints from here!! I too have had many conversations with Tom, and my wife and I visited him on a trip back East. All of my dealings with him have been positive and pleasant. I would highly recommend Tom to anyone on a business or personal level.

03-23-2002, 12:27 PM	#6
Orv Reichert RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SW Washington State Posts: 339 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom Heller I would add my voice...I have known and dealt with Tom for 30 years. He has always been honest and straight with me. Orv Reichert

03-23-2002, 12:38 PM	#7
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Tom Heller I ordered some dipped magazines (P-38) from him and he didn"t have them, so he sent me original at no extra cost!! Can"t beat that! One was an E/88. Lonnie

03-23-2002, 02:07 PM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Tom Heller Tom Heller has saved my bacon more than once with gun parts. I needed some Luger parts and nobody else had them. He came through and they are always very very good parts. I needed a frame to go with a shooter and he had one that was the same make as my Luger upper. I CONSTANTLY ask him advice about other guns and take down methods and things he knows alot about. He is always very generous with his quick replies and he really gets nothing out of it for his time but a thank you. Tom is a good friend to me! ~Thor~

03-23-2002, 03:34 PM	#9
Leo Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Tom Heller This "hobby" of ours needs more people with the character and profesionalism Of Mr. Heller..........Leo

03-23-2002, 04:40 PM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Re:Customer satisfaction I just purchased a 1900AE luger from Tom. Had no problems. The luger was better than advertised. I would deal with Tom anytime (and will!)

03-23-2002, 04:58 PM	#11
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Re: Appraisals, Information, & Etc (Long) Marvin.... What a terrific post... You are absolutely right on target. Being a customer of Toms on many occasions, I will say that I mirror your sentiments. And no - I do not understand why folks on this forum feel free to post personal attacks. And yes - 99% of the time - there are two sides to the story. In my personal experience with Tom - if he knew I was dissatisfied with any of the products I have purchased from him, I am more then confident then he would have taken his items back without a second thought. Such is the character of someone who stands behind his product and representations. My respect to you Tom for that.... Also - he is one of the few dealers who take an active interest in this Forum and helping out the newer folks amongst us. Our combined thanks for that, too Tom.... John D.

03-23-2002, 05:42 PM	#12
Don User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 146 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Tom Heller I share all the positive feelings about Tom. I'm a newbie, and he has been infinitely fair and patient with me!

03-23-2002, 05:59 PM	#13
Brandon Metcalf Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Appraisals, Information, & Etc (Long) I have never dealt personaly with Tom Heller, But according to all of you he sounds like someone I would like to do some trading with in the future. ,Brandon

03-23-2002, 06:57 PM	#14
Marilyn and Dan Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Appraisals, Information, & Etc (Long) We have known and dealt with Tom for many years. Although we may not be his biggest customer we have always found him very helpful and knowledgeable in our search for Luger parts. If he did not have what we were looking for he would share his resources with us or source our needs himself and contact us. The transactions were always quick and satisfactory, and because the items were better than described we have never had to ask for a return or refund, but feel confident that that would not be a problem. To suggest he could be involved in a " scam" is an insult to his integrity and is slanderous. Whenever a newbie asks for parts information everyone on the forum will always recommend Tom. We think that speaks for itself. Our opinion is that "Bill M" owes Tom an apology and if he doesn't, we will apologize for his rude remarks. Tom, it's always a pleasure.

03-23-2002, 08:04 PM	#15
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	Re: Tom Heller Dang! I always miss out on the good snot throws--Had to back and read up. If I was getting something for half price from a dealer I think I would realize there were more questions to be asked-unless I thought he was senile/stupid and I was trying to get over on him. In which case I would deserve to get burnt-which is not the case here.

03-23-2002, 08:40 PM	#16
tom h Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Blushing Yeezs Guys, You're making me blush. I've been away at a show, and completely missed this thread until now. Having customers & friends like you, makes my work a pleasure. Thanks, Tom h.

03-23-2002, 09:19 PM	#17
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Opinions Marvin and all, I was just going to let this lay and not comment, but then I figured that this deserves a reply. None of you know me, know what I have, or know whom I have dealt with. I admire your loyality, but in my opinion you should have just read the post and made your own assumptions. You want to always share information, but you never what to hear any of the negative information. First, I do not consider this a personal attack. If I was to personally attack someone, I would come right out and tell them and all of you just what I thought and to never have anything to do with this guy again. I did not do that, and I have done business with this individual since this happened. I also stand by my statement that: Anyone that would have the same guy selling you the Luger appraise it, and authenticate it for you is asking to be taken. No one in any other business would ever think of doing such a thing, and it would be a great scam. Secondly, none of you know the details of this transaction, so you really have no comment on what went on, only in what has happened in your own transactions. Negative feedback makes business's try harder, and to correct previous problems. Thirdly, I have no intention to apologize for simply sharing what happened in my transaction. This was simply a bad transaction inwhich I returned the Lugers and got my money back and felt I was intentionally deceived as to the conditon in the hopes I wouldn't know any better. That is my opinion. I never received an apology for having to return the Lugers, so I do not feel one is deserved here. I was the guy dealing in good faith, the guy spending the money, and the guy loosing all the shipping. Enough said as far as I'm concerned. Sincerly -- Bill Munis

03-24-2002, 12:31 AM	#18
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Exactly. Bill M. Wrote: "Secondly, none of you know the details of this transaction, so you really have no comment on what went on.." We were not commenting on your transaction - merely on our experience with Tom H. And how a combined "our" experience can be so radically different then yours - can only be left up to the readers own imagination. As for an apology - if it was a "bad transaction" (your words), and you got your money back from Tom H. (a small detail you seem to have left out in your first post?) - what is to apologize for, Bill? Perhaps the omission in your comment that you got your $ back? I dunno... Again - perhaps the Forum readers can decide for themselves. Yes, there are always two sides to an issue. Thanks for sharing more relevant details to "your side".

03-24-2002, 01:27 AM	#19
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Exactly. John, Imagine what you want, but all transactions do not go smoothly. What works for some is not satisfactory for others. As for the apology, one of the poster thought I should, for being rude, and had nothing to do with the money. I never gave the impression my money was not returned. I said I returned the Lugers in my first post. The point being, I would not have wanted them if I was told exactly what they were to start with. You give me the impression that if you get your money back, anything and everything that happened suddenly doesn't matter, as it becomes acceptable? The money never was the issue with me, but rather the lack of essential information. I feel I've said enough on this, but just wanted to clear up a few of your assumptions.

03-24-2002, 02:01 AM	#20
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Re: Exactly. Bill M. Wrote: "...Imagine what you want.." Ummm- I'm not "imagining" the posts I've read - you can see those, as well? Bill M. Wrote: >..and had nothing to do with the money. Oh - I'm sorry - I must have misread your original post where you were upset at spending "money" on Lugers - I didn't realize you traded sheep or something else for them..? Bill M. Wrote: >I never gave the impression my money was not returned... I thought you just said it that it "had nothing to do with the money"...???? Bill M. Wrote: >...I would not have wanted them if I was told exactly what they were... And being the well-informed "collector" - as we advise everyone on this Forum - of course you asked if they were import marked - or were you just looking for a non-import/original finished Luger at import prices? So you "assumed" - without asking? Hmmm...... Bill M. Wrote: >I feel I've said enough on this, but just wanted to clear up a few of your assumptions. I didn't "assume" anything. Apparently, you did, however. Hope this helps - somehow.