Nickled luger?

Deaf Smith · 08-15-2001, 02:43 PM

Gentleman,

Nice forum you have here. Very intresting as well. I have what I know is a shooter Luger. I know this becouse its been refinished. You see it has a shiny NICKLE finish and Jay Scott Ivorex grips. this doen not strike me as quite origional. Too bad too as it is a 1941 dated nazi proofed gun with all matching numbers. Anybody have any idea how it got this way? It came with an origional holster as well but I sold that at a local gun show. It is the first and only nickled Luger I have ever seen. Any information is welcome.

Deaf Smith

Dok · 08-15-2001, 03:19 PM

Sorry to hear about your Luger. Nickled Lugers are not all that uncommon, unfortunately. Generally the handiwork of some well meaning owner who thought the original finish needing touching up a bit. Too bad because it sounds like you would have had a nice piece there. Well, look on the bright side, you can take it to the range, and shoot it with great abandon, without fear of destroying a priceless collectible.

Dok

08-15-2001, 04:31 PM

I have one of them also (now re-blued). The story I heard was that at least two plating firms set up shop in the New York harbor area to nickle plate GI trophies for them. A lot of matched guns were given this nickle treatment.

Best regards.

Joe · 08-15-2001, 06:33 PM

Deaf

When I was a young lad my father would be talking with men in his age group, usually in a bar and they all had take home "articles" from both theaters of WW II. Sometimes one of these former GIs's would show my father a handgun or bayonet that he just had a friend chrome at one of the many factories in southern CT. I recall everyone saying how nice the finish made the weapon look. To me in those days, these weapons looked great. Either chrome or nickle plating was the "style in the early '50s, just look at the bumpers on those cars from that eaa.

I was recently shown a P-38, marked 480, that was all matching, including the magazine. It had been chromed years ago and many of the proof marks, etc were partically filled in by this material. The owner believed this weapon was much more valuable because it was chromed. I couldn't bring myself to tell this old guy the truth about the damage to this gun's value.

08-15-2001, 08:38 PM

lugerholsterrepair · 08-15-2001, 10:43 PM

DeafSmith, The good news is that the chrome finish can be taken off the same way it went on. By electroplate. Only reverse the process and that will bring back the pistol to bare metal without buffing anything off. Then you can have Ted Green put a very nice blue on it and have a nice weapon and somewhat original. I did it with a 1908 I found at the Houston Gun Show. Worked out great. Jerry

dc8ray · 08-15-2001, 11:44 PM

Can you give more information on removal of the nickle. I am in the same boat. Does the reverse hurt the gun underneath? In a previous thread in this wonderful forum, it was suggested that trying to restore the pistol is very expensive and may hurt the base metal underneath the nickle.

Check it out:

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/dc8rayspimpgun.JPG

My Dad was a WW2 pilot (P47 in the 8th Air Force). When he passed on several years ago, I inhereated (sp) his small collection. A nickle Luger(plus one, not) and numerous firearms all nickled, such as a S&W 13, S&W 10, a couple of 1st gen SAA's, S&W 60 ss, 3 series 70's Colt 1911's, a nickle 3rd gen SAA, and a few more that I don't want to go into.

I guess a lot of the GI's, really seemed to like the nickle. I guess after dealing with the rust in Europe, the nickle seemed like a good idea.

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/dc8rayspimpgun.JPG

08-16-2001, 10:30 AM

You can expect to pickup some small pitting if all parts are stripped at the same time. This can be avoided at additional expense of course by sorting the components by hardness and stripping only those with like hardness together and keeping a close eye on them during the process.

Best regards.

Deaf Smith · 08-16-2001, 03:07 PM

I would then have a reblued luger worth about the same as the nickle one I have now if I read the info on this sight correctly. As the gun has already been refinished its nothing but a shooter. Removing the nickle would not change that would it? As it is it really don't look bad nickle, not origional but not bad. at least not bad enough to refinish until necessary. Who knows, then I can have it electroless nickled!

Deaf Smith

08-16-2001, 03:23 PM

If you have a new-condition unused gun which was nevertheless reblued (such as the Soviets did with a lot of P-38's and perhaps Lugers) and you carefully remove the reblueing leaving behind the original finish, do you now have an original condition pistol again? Presume for argument's sake that it does not have import marks or Soviet-added stampings on it.

Dok · 08-16-2001, 07:25 PM

It's bad enough when the topic of rework versus original surfaces, without adding a wrinkle like that. I suggest that this philosophiocal question is best left unasked and unanswered. A reworked Luger is a reworked Luger and therefore NOT original regardless of whether this is the first or second time the original finish has seen the light of day.

Let's leave it there.

Dok (Webmaster)

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 08-17-2001, 12:37 AM

Sorry Doc, I will answer the technical part of the question without care about the philosophical part.

The reason why I answer the question is that I cannot see any reason for people to be suspisios or scared for a gun they intend to buy as this treatment is not possible.

The bluing is not a coating like the chromium or other kinds of platings is.

While a plating is building the surface up the bluing is not building up anything at all.

The bluind is a rust process and if one bluing is removed all bluing will be removed.

Thus it's not possible to remove the russian bluing to have a 100% original rustbluing underneath, as the only thing you would archive is to get a completely grey pistol without any bluing at all.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Thor · 08-17-2001, 01:10 AM

Haken, seems like Orv from the P38 has had GREAT luck with this method! Here it is from a 7/1/01 posting by Orv from the P38 forum www.p38forum.com ~Thor~

The guns from the former USSR are all dipped in a type of cold blue which does not stick to the surfaces that are already blued....so---------

I take 00000 (5 ought) steel wool and a little dish of clear oil. -- the gun is disassembled in front of me..I take each piece and dip a small piece of steel wool in the oil..then lightly scrub on the finish...I wipe it off quite often with a kleenex....[note the dark blue on the kleenex..]

wipe it dry and examine the piece closely from time to time..........you don't want to mar the finish..

I often wrap a bit of steel wool around Q-tip and use that in the corners...etc.

This has worked for me...

Orv Reichert

PS don't hesitate to contact me directly by email if you need more detailed info..

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 08-17-2001, 01:55 AM

Ok Then I was obviusly wrong.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

http://www.vapensmedjan.com

John Sabato · 08-17-2001, 07:31 AM

If the process was a hot salt dip blueing I agree with you... it's removal would also remove any original bluing beneath it.

Cold blue, as Ted is talking about is really just a chemical color on top of the metal and certain solvents will remove it, (often without the permission of the owner!)but not remove the salt rust finish underneath.

If anyone here has ever had the plating removed from a pistol, I would love to see before during and after photos of the process... especially if the pistol underneath retained its original finish after de-plating.

In the past I have passed on several otherwise good buys because they were plated...

regards,

-John

Thor · 08-17-2001, 08:53 AM

I am not talking about cold bluing, I am talking about a full dip bluing of the firearm. Several folks on the P38 forum have had good success with this. Are you saying John that the full dip bluing was cold bluing? Sorry Hakan, looks like I misspelled you name last night and I cannot make my computer make the little o symbol with all the codes people mention, I simply cant make it work! ~Thor~

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 08-17-2001, 08:58 AM

I have always been told that the russian guns was boiled in oil but as i never have seen any of those guns i don't know.

AS far as I know about dip blue there is some proceses that contians discolored cupper and this can of course be removed.

I don't belive that it will be possible to nickelplate a gun above it's orignal blue as the parts have to be totally cleaned before plating.

I have had a lot of plated guns striped from the plating but they are always greish underneath of the plating.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

http://www.vapensmedjan.com

John Sabato · 08-17-2001, 10:29 AM

were only interested in a cosmetic improvement in order to get a better price for the old guns. I do not have knowledge of what process that they used, but if it really was a rusting process, then any method that would remove the "new" bluing should also remove the old bluing with prejudice... agents that will remove bluing usually don't discriminate betweem the two finishes.

I have read the posts on the P38 forum but fail to see how any blue finish could be left if the new blue was removed unless it is really dark parkerizing instead of blue.

In any event, if the finish has been tampered with, you cannot remove all traces of it, and FWIW I am of the opinion that condition of these "unblued" pieces should not be considered the same as "original" -

my $0.05's worth...

-John

John Sabato · 08-17-2001, 10:34 AM

"The guns from the former USSR are all dipped in a type of cold blue"

Thor · 08-17-2001, 12:30 PM

Cool., my apologies to Hakan, seems like I made de BOOBOO!

Thanks John! It is nice to know we can take it off! I know some guys will also do this with guns they bought from gun shows, get a 99% gun home and find some cold bluing on the wear places, sideplate, barrel muzzle side, etc and end up with a 93% gun with only the original finish remaining!

Again, sorry for my mistake! Thor

08-15-2001, 02:43 PM	#1
Deaf Smith User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: PA Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nickled luger? Gentleman, Nice forum you have here. Very intresting as well. I have what I know is a shooter Luger. I know this becouse its been refinished. You see it has a shiny NICKLE finish and Jay Scott Ivorex grips. this doen not strike me as quite origional. Too bad too as it is a 1941 dated nazi proofed gun with all matching numbers. Anybody have any idea how it got this way? It came with an origional holster as well but I sold that at a local gun show. It is the first and only nickled Luger I have ever seen. Any information is welcome. Deaf Smith

08-15-2001, 03:19 PM	#2
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Nickled luger? Sorry to hear about your Luger. Nickled Lugers are not all that uncommon, unfortunately. Generally the handiwork of some well meaning owner who thought the original finish needing touching up a bit. Too bad because it sounds like you would have had a nice piece there. Well, look on the bright side, you can take it to the range, and shoot it with great abandon, without fear of destroying a priceless collectible. Dok

08-15-2001, 04:31 PM	#3
REB Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Nickled luger? I have one of them also (now re-blued). The story I heard was that at least two plating firms set up shop in the New York harbor area to nickle plate GI trophies for them. A lot of matched guns were given this nickle treatment. Best regards.

08-15-2001, 06:33 PM	#4
Joe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 96 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Nickled luger? Deaf When I was a young lad my father would be talking with men in his age group, usually in a bar and they all had take home "articles" from both theaters of WW II. Sometimes one of these former GIs's would show my father a handgun or bayonet that he just had a friend chrome at one of the many factories in southern CT. I recall everyone saying how nice the finish made the weapon look. To me in those days, these weapons looked great. Either chrome or nickle plating was the "style in the early '50s, just look at the bumpers on those cars from that eaa. I was recently shown a P-38, marked 480, that was all matching, including the magazine. It had been chromed years ago and many of the proof marks, etc were partically filled in by this material. The owner believed this weapon was much more valuable because it was chromed. I couldn't bring myself to tell this old guy the truth about the damage to this gun's value.

08-15-2001, 08:38 PM	#5
Rob Regers Guest Posts: n/a	THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!! (EOM)

08-15-2001, 10:43 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!! DeafSmith, The good news is that the chrome finish can be taken off the same way it went on. By electroplate. Only reverse the process and that will bring back the pistol to bare metal without buffing anything off. Then you can have Ted Green put a very nice blue on it and have a nice weapon and somewhat original. I did it with a 1908 I found at the Houston Gun Show. Worked out great. Jerry

08-15-2001, 11:44 PM	#7
dc8ray User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!! Can you give more information on removal of the nickle. I am in the same boat. Does the reverse hurt the gun underneath? In a previous thread in this wonderful forum, it was suggested that trying to restore the pistol is very expensive and may hurt the base metal underneath the nickle. Check it out: http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/dc8rayspimpgun.JPG My Dad was a WW2 pilot (P47 in the 8th Air Force). When he passed on several years ago, I inhereated (sp) his small collection. A nickle Luger(plus one, not) and numerous firearms all nickled, such as a S&W 13, S&W 10, a couple of 1st gen SAA's, S&W 60 ss, 3 series 70's Colt 1911's, a nickle 3rd gen SAA, and a few more that I don't want to go into. I guess a lot of the GI's, really seemed to like the nickle. I guess after dealing with the rust in Europe, the nickle seemed like a good idea. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/dc8rayspimpgun.JPG

08-16-2001, 10:30 AM	#8
REB Guest Posts: n/a	Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!! You can expect to pickup some small pitting if all parts are stripped at the same time. This can be avoided at additional expense of course by sorting the components by hardness and stripping only those with like hardness together and keeping a close eye on them during the process. Best regards.

08-16-2001, 03:07 PM	#9
Deaf Smith User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: PA Posts: 32 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: THE HORROR, THE HORROR!!! I would then have a reblued luger worth about the same as the nickle one I have now if I read the info on this sight correctly. As the gun has already been refinished its nothing but a shooter. Removing the nickle would not change that would it? As it is it really don't look bad nickle, not origional but not bad. at least not bad enough to refinish until necessary. Who knows, then I can have it electroless nickled! Deaf Smith

08-16-2001, 03:23 PM	#10
Mike T. Guest Posts: n/a	Profound philosophical question If you have a new-condition unused gun which was nevertheless reblued (such as the Soviets did with a lot of P-38's and perhaps Lugers) and you carefully remove the reblueing leaving behind the original finish, do you now have an original condition pistol again? Presume for argument's sake that it does not have import marks or Soviet-added stampings on it.

08-16-2001, 07:25 PM	#11
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Are you trying to stir it up??? It's bad enough when the topic of rework versus original surfaces, without adding a wrinkle like that. I suggest that this philosophiocal question is best left unasked and unanswered. A reworked Luger is a reworked Luger and therefore NOT original regardless of whether this is the first or second time the original finish has seen the light of day. Let's leave it there. Dok (Webmaster)

08-17-2001, 12:37 AM	#12
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Profound philosophical question Sorry Doc, I will answer the technical part of the question without care about the philosophical part. The reason why I answer the question is that I cannot see any reason for people to be suspisios or scared for a gun they intend to buy as this treatment is not possible. The bluing is not a coating like the chromium or other kinds of platings is. While a plating is building the surface up the bluing is not building up anything at all. The bluind is a rust process and if one bluing is removed all bluing will be removed. Thus it's not possible to remove the russian bluing to have a 100% original rustbluing underneath, as the only thing you would archive is to get a completely grey pistol without any bluing at all. Regards HÃ?Â¥kan http://www.vapensmedjan.com

08-17-2001, 01:10 AM	#13
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Removing Dip Bluing Haken, seems like Orv from the P38 has had GREAT luck with this method! Here it is from a 7/1/01 posting by Orv from the P38 forum www.p38forum.com ~Thor~ The guns from the former USSR are all dipped in a type of cold blue which does not stick to the surfaces that are already blued....so--------- I take 00000 (5 ought) steel wool and a little dish of clear oil. -- the gun is disassembled in front of me..I take each piece and dip a small piece of steel wool in the oil..then lightly scrub on the finish...I wipe it off quite often with a kleenex....[note the dark blue on the kleenex..] wipe it dry and examine the piece closely from time to time..........you don't want to mar the finish.. I often wrap a bit of steel wool around Q-tip and use that in the corners...etc. This has worked for me... Orv Reichert PS don't hesitate to contact me directly by email if you need more detailed info..

08-17-2001, 01:55 AM	#14
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Removing Dip Bluing Ok Then I was obviusly wrong. Regards HÃ?Â¥kan http://www.vapensmedjan.com

08-17-2001, 07:31 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	You Not wrong HÃ?Â¥kan just talking about different things... If the process was a hot salt dip blueing I agree with you... it's removal would also remove any original bluing beneath it. Cold blue, as Ted is talking about is really just a chemical color on top of the metal and certain solvents will remove it, (often without the permission of the owner!)but not remove the salt rust finish underneath. If anyone here has ever had the plating removed from a pistol, I would love to see before during and after photos of the process... especially if the pistol underneath retained its original finish after de-plating. In the past I have passed on several otherwise good buys because they were plated... regards, -John

08-17-2001, 08:53 AM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: You Not wrong HÃ?Â¥kan just talking about different things... I am not talking about cold bluing, I am talking about a full dip bluing of the firearm. Several folks on the P38 forum have had good success with this. Are you saying John that the full dip bluing was cold bluing? Sorry Hakan, looks like I misspelled you name last night and I cannot make my computer make the little o symbol with all the codes people mention, I simply cant make it work! ~Thor~

08-17-2001, 08:58 AM	#17
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: You Not wrong HÃ?Â¥kan just talking about different things... I have always been told that the russian guns was boiled in oil but as i never have seen any of those guns i don't know. AS far as I know about dip blue there is some proceses that contians discolored cupper and this can of course be removed. I don't belive that it will be possible to nickelplate a gun above it's orignal blue as the parts have to be totally cleaned before plating. I have had a lot of plated guns striped from the plating but they are always greish underneath of the plating. Regards HÃ?Â¥kan http://www.vapensmedjan.com

08-17-2001, 10:29 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ted, What I am suggesting is that perhaps the Russians... were only interested in a cosmetic improvement in order to get a better price for the old guns. I do not have knowledge of what process that they used, but if it really was a rusting process, then any method that would remove the "new" bluing should also remove the old bluing with prejudice... agents that will remove bluing usually don't discriminate betweem the two finishes. I have read the posts on the P38 forum but fail to see how any blue finish could be left if the new blue was removed unless it is really dark parkerizing instead of blue. In any event, if the finish has been tampered with, you cannot remove all traces of it, and FWIW I am of the opinion that condition of these "unblued" pieces should not be considered the same as "original" - my $0.05's worth... -John

08-17-2001, 10:34 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ted, re-read Orv's quote in your own post - It IS cold blue! "The guns from the former USSR are all dipped in a type of cold blue"

08-17-2001, 12:30 PM	#20
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Ted, re-read Orv's quote in your own post - It IS cold blue! Cool., my apologies to Hakan, seems like I made de BOOBOO! Thanks John! It is nice to know we can take it off! I know some guys will also do this with guns they bought from gun shows, get a 99% gun home and find some cold bluing on the wear places, sideplate, barrel muzzle side, etc and end up with a 93% gun with only the original finish remaining! Again, sorry for my mistake! Thor