Final Proof or Serial Number - which first?

[Kyrie]

I had always assumed, without giving it much thought, that each Luger was stamped with its serial number before going to final proof.

Looks like I was mistaken:

[DonVoigt]

This is not a good example to question, as it is a commercial receiver later modified by the police with a the partial serial added to the receiver. The added numbers were clearly added over the Navy marking, but then the Navy was a complete finished and used pistol before the police got it!

Edited. Sorry for dumb mistake.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

This is not a good example to question, as it is a Navy receiver...

Isn't the C/N a commercial receiver???

[George Anderson]

This is an example of a 1920 commercial that was subsequently directed to police use thus the left side serial number was stamped over the commercial proof. Both the side plate and locking lug may have serial numbers on their bottom.

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

This is not a good example to question, as it is a Navy receiver later modified by the police with a the partial serial added to the receiver. The added numbers were clearly added over the Navy marking, but then the Navy was a complete finished and used pistol before the police got it!

May I ask what it is that leads you to believe the frame is a Navy frame?

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

This is an example of a 1920 commercial that was subsequently directed to polive use thus the left side serial number was stamped over the commercial proof. Both the side plate and locking lug may have serial numbers on their bottom.

That is correct; side plate and locking lug show two digit number on bottom edge, consistent with a commercial numbering scheme.

I'm of the opinion this is one of the 1920/1921 'n' block commercials discussed here:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=25334

Kyrie

[alvin]

Not only Luger,,, those guns must be numbered before final proof, so the relevant parties involved could keep track of which gun was accepted, and which gun was rejected. If they cared why an previously carefully inspected gun failed final proofing, number could help investigator to track where the quality hole was in the process. Without numbers, that's impossible... or very awkward.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Isn't the C/N a commercial receiver???

Looks to me like a Pentagonal Crown over N, of the Imperial Navy.

EXCUSE me- mind bubble- it is an N not an M- I could not see the N for wanting it to be an M!
Mea culpa!

Anyway, still not a good example as the left chamber number was added much later, as you now know- along with the numbers added to the outside of the side plate and take down lever.

[Norme]

Hi Don,
Crown/N was the Commercial proof, Crown/M the Navy. Both Commercials and Navies were numbered Commercial style. But you knew that, right?
Best regards, Norm

[Kyrie]

I'm getting the sense that the majority of respondents are making the same assumption that I did; that Lugers received their serial numbers before being subjected to final proof. What say you all?

[George Anderson]

Kyrie, you're correct but your pistol is a common exception as has been explained. So what's your question?

[DonVoigt]

Different eras,different answers.

Early lugers- frame numbered before bluing, barrel number after blue and proof of the pistol; hence the famous "ghosts" on barrel serial numbers.

Late Mausers- Both stamped before finish and finish is hot salt blued- I guess because the finish was not labor intensive- or fewer barrels failed during final inspection or ?

In between, probably lots of exceptions; as with all things luger- no "simple" black and white answer. JMHO.

[Kyrie]

George,

A few things here, just for clarity.

1) I’ve always assumed serial numbers were applied (full on frame, serial less suffix, if any, on barrel and barrel extension).

2) This gun challenged my assumption. Either my assumption was wrong or this gun is an aberration.

3) I don’t have any preference as to which was done first, I’m just curious.

I posted to get other opinions, and in the hope someone might have primary source info that would settle the question. No luck so far on primary source info, but the thread is young – we’ll see what if anything crops up.

Opinions are running for serial number first, proof second. That’s fine by me.

That just leaves us with this aberrant gun, and the question of why it got its barrel extension SN after final proof. I haven’t seen a persuasive explanation of that just yet. And yes I saw Don’s comment the “ … left chamber number was added much later… “, but that just belabors the obvious (that the barrel extension was applied after proof) and don’t address the question of “why?”

Let’s remember that both military and Alphabet DWM commercial had the barrel extension serial number in the same place; on the left barrel extension flat. The only thing unusual about the barrel extension SN on this gun is it was struck over the existing commercial proof.

Which brings us full circle to the question, “why?” I look forward to reading the speculations.

Kyrie

[DonVoigt]

"(that the barrel extension was applied after proof) and don’t address the question of “why?”"

Ok, the why on this example is that it was numbered in the military style when re-worked by the police, since it did not have a serial number on the receiver(1920 commercials do not), the 4 digits without suffix were added. This is not "speculation".

This example is not an "abberant" gun, there are many examples of such added numbers; I have several myself and another on the way.

This is all explained in the three volume work by Goertz and Sturgess, with many references to the original German regs and requirements.

Here are pictures of a few police "reworks" I have with the added serial digits to the left of the chamber, and a couple that did not get them added. Remember that most of these reworks were refinished after the work, and all the markings are typically "under" the finish.

Hope this helps.

[Ron Wood]

That just leaves us with this aberrant gun, and the question of why it got its barrel extension SN after final proof. I haven’t seen a persuasive explanation of that just yet. And yes I saw Don’s comment the “ … left chamber number was added much later… “, but that just belabors the obvious (that the barrel extension was applied after proof) and don’t address the question of “why?”

Why?...Because the barrel extension serial number was added when the gun was modified for police use and the police numbering system followed the military style of exposed serial numbers. Originally the gun was a 1920 Alphabet commercial with no serial number on the barrel extension and hidden (on the bottom) numbers on the side plate and take down lever. These also were re-numbered in the exposed military style when the gun was modified for police service

Let’s remember that both military and Alphabet DWM commercial had the barrel extension serial number in the same place; on the left barrel extension flat. The only thing unusual about the barrel extension SN on this gun is it was struck over the existing commercial proof.

Nope...Alphabet commercials did not have the serial number on the left barrel extension flat.

Which brings us full circle to the question, “why?” I look forward to reading the speculations.

The "why" has been pretty much explained in the previous posts. The reason it seems aberrant to you is that you were of the misunderstanding that an Alphabet commercial was serial numbered on the left receiver flat...it wasn't, only the Crown/N was applied to the receiver flat.

ADDED:
Darn, Don got the answer in while I was typing!

[Edward Tinker]

1. Commercial, no serial number on left, receives crown N proof

2. Military and police, serial number on left, if ordered through the army, receives military acceptance and proofs

3. If police happened to buy for their department after it was on the commercial market, then sent to them. BTW, a commercial could have gone to a civilian, an officer or overseas. But since it went to police, they THEN numbered it on the left.

[Kyrie]

Thank you, gentlemen, you have cleared up my lack of understanding and I stand gratefully corrected.