Do you see what I see?

wayne8661 · 07-04-2016, 11:17 AM

This gun appeared on legacies website last week they put it on hold for me as I was anxious to get a hold of it it looks good at first appearance and still looks good for the most part to My eyes.

However, as I was studying it on the computer the other night I noticed something missing. There is no serial number stamped into the second link of the toggle I am not accusing of any wrongdoing by the seller as I have dealt with them a few times and I've been happy just being a 1912 where they first converted to military style serial numbers could this just be an oversight by DWM or do you think the link has been replaced?

I will do a hands-on inspection with it this week as legacy is only about five minutes from where I work attached is the link to the weapon. I would appreciate anybody's input before our she'll out the money.

http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/n...-gun-unit.html

Karl · 07-04-2016, 12:00 PM

I don't see a number either but the online photos are not that great. If the link is indeed un-numbered then it detracts from the value of the gun, regardless of explanations.
KFS

Norme · 07-04-2016, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I think it is a mixed up pistol, the receiver is Erfurt Proofed.

I don't see Erfurt acceptance markings on the small parts, I suspect it is an assembled pistol.

I beg to differ. The receiver is NOT Erfurt proofed and the gun looks all original to me. The serial number of the middle toggle link should be found in the recess underneath.
Norm

Karl · 07-04-2016, 12:41 PM

Don,
I don't understand your observation that the receiver is Erfurt proofed. The Reichsadler is the DWM type and the inspection stamps are correct for 1912 DWM. Could you have been looking at photos of another Luger on the web site?
KFS

Sergio Natali · 07-04-2016, 01:04 PM

To me the pictures are not clear at all, although the price doesn't involve an awful lot of money this is probably one of those cases when a good hands-on evaluation would be advisable.

George Anderson · 07-04-2016, 02:28 PM

A 1912 dated DWM should have a serial numbered forward toggle. The transition from hidden to exposed numbering was in 1911 at the same time small parts serial numbering transitioned to the military fashion.

wayne8661 · 07-04-2016, 02:53 PM

I am in agreement that the two digit serial number should be on the outside of the second toggle link (behind the DWM Logo)
According to Jan Stills Imperial lugers about the 1912 DWM Pages 22-23 "Earliest production had the commercial style of serial number placement, Mid-production had SOME small parts with the exposed (military) style serial placement, and last production had full military style serial placement."

This particular gun being SN 7954 I wouldn't really say its Mid production. But with the hands on if I find the "54" hidden on the underside of the toggle link I think it may still have a chance.

wayne8661 · 07-04-2016, 03:03 PM

Just as reference

Top pic- Military type SN on toggle from a 1912 (Upper Toggle in pic)
Commercial style placement from a unit marked 1910 (Lower toggle in pic)
2nd pic - undersides of toggles with the commercial SN digits hidden on the 1910
3 and 4th pucs close ups of the recessed areas showing the last two of the serial number on the 1910

DonVoigt · 07-04-2016, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl

Don,
I don't understand your observation that the receiver is Erfurt proofed. The Reichsadler is the DWM type and the inspection stamps are correct for 1912 DWM. Could you have been looking at photos of another Luger on the web site?
KFS

You are both correct, brain bubble is my only excuse.

DonVoigt · 07-04-2016, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

I beg to differ. The receiver is NOT Erfurt proofed and the gun looks all original to me. The serial number of the middle toggle link should be found in the recess underneath.
Norm

You are correct Norm, I was asleep, distracted or other wise just wrong.

wayne8661 · 07-04-2016, 09:34 PM

So any thoughts on whether this could be a mistake at the factory or is this just a messed with piece? I also notice one comment that has been deleted from this thread. Strange I would think all
Opinions would be welcome. I certainly am not thin skinned about learning I am just a student and appreciate all comments!!

DonVoigt · 07-04-2016, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayne8661

So any thoughts on whether this could be a mistake at the factory or is this just a messed with piece? I also notice one comment that has been deleted from this thread. Strange I would think all
Opinions would be welcome. I certainly am not thin skinned about learning I am just a student and appreciate all comments!!

Wayne,
My comment was in error, I was looking at a DWM eagle and registered Erfurt, nothing nefarious, I was just wrong.

Too early or too late and my brain was just not connected to my fingers - hence "brain bubble".

IMO, there are "no" factory errors, and if they are you can not use them to explain a "wrong" pistol.

This one likely lies in the transition from hidden or commercial type numbers to the military style.

Read all the posts, and look for the numbers on the side of the breech block and on the bottom of the middle toggle when you get a chance to look at the piece or ask questions.

wayne8661 · 07-04-2016, 10:13 PM

Don I appreciate it I didn't mean a factory error I guess I should've chosen my words more wisely!
I guess I am hoping that it can be explained by finding the correct serial numbers on the underside of the toggle. Then I may feel comfortable in the fact that it may be due to the transition from commercial to military placement.

Tomorrow will tell

hayhugh · 07-05-2016, 07:08 AM

Another case where removing part of or all a post just confuses the whole thread...

DonVoigt · 07-05-2016, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayhugh

Another case where removing part of or all a post just confuses the whole thread...

I resemble that remark

.

I think removing a post that is obviously WRONG is the right thing to do; it would have caused more confusion in future to leave it.

Now if the two guys who caught my error would remove reference to it, it would all make sense again.

wayne8661 · 07-05-2016, 08:02 AM

Guys I appreciate the honesty in this post. Don anyone can make a mistake
Doesn't reflect negatively on you in my eyes. I'm the one who jumped on a gun missing an obvious
Serial number. Luckily I am still not out any cash. I am hoping that the correct numbers are tucked away under the toggle then I may proceed with the purchase. If they aren't I may just pass on it altogether

John Sabato · 07-05-2016, 10:06 AM

I recommend that if you make a mistake when writing a post, that instead of deletion you consider editing the your post, leaving the original text and then including a retraction or correction as appropriate (perhaps in a different font or color to highlight the edit). This will leave future readers much less confused... not to mention old timers like me!

Eugen · 07-05-2016, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

This will leave future readers much less confused... not to mention old timers like me!

John, you made a good point. That approach makes a lot of sense to me.

But, heck, a Luger newbie like me found this thread topic above my head and confusing with or without edits or deletions. LOL

DonVoigt · 07-05-2016, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I recommend that if you make a mistake when writing a post, that instead of deletion you consider editing the your post, leaving the original text and then including a retraction or correction as appropriate (perhaps in a different font or color to highlight the edit). This will leave future readers much less confused... not to mention old timers like me!

Good idea.

wayne8661 · 07-05-2016, 02:54 PM

Okay so I just went and did a hands on. The pistol looks right as rain except for the middle toggle link.
It is stamped with a small"1" in the recess under the toggle. Front toggle link, Extractor, Rear toggle link all stamped with the correct number, All parts minus mag (And middle toggle) stamped 54

This includes the grips.

What a dilemma

07-04-2016, 11:17 AM	#1
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Do you see what I see? This gun appeared on legacies website last week they put it on hold for me as I was anxious to get a hold of it it looks good at first appearance and still looks good for the most part to My eyes. However, as I was studying it on the computer the other night I noticed something missing. There is no serial number stamped into the second link of the toggle I am not accusing of any wrongdoing by the seller as I have dealt with them a few times and I've been happy just being a 1912 where they first converted to military style serial numbers could this just be an oversight by DWM or do you think the link has been replaced? I will do a hands-on inspection with it this week as legacy is only about five minutes from where I work attached is the link to the weapon. I would appreciate anybody's input before our she'll out the money. http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/n...-gun-unit.html

07-04-2016, 01:04 PM	#5
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	To me the pictures are not clear at all, although the price doesn't involve an awful lot of money this is probably one of those cases when a good hands-on evaluation would be advisable. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

07-04-2016, 03:03 PM	#8
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Just as reference Top pic- Military type SN on toggle from a 1912 (Upper Toggle in pic) Commercial style placement from a unit marked 1910 (Lower toggle in pic) 2nd pic - undersides of toggles with the commercial SN digits hidden on the 1910 3 and 4th pucs close ups of the recessed areas showing the last two of the serial number on the 1910 Attached Thumbnails

07-05-2016, 10:06 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I recommend that if you make a mistake when writing a post, that instead of deletion you consider editing the your post, leaving the original text and then including a retraction or correction as appropriate (perhaps in a different font or color to highlight the edit). This will leave future readers much less confused... not to mention old timers like me! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-04-2016, 12:00 PM	#2
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 253 Times in 112 Posts	I don't see a number either but the online photos are not that great. If the link is indeed un-numbered then it detracts from the value of the gun, regardless of explanations. KFS

07-04-2016, 12:41 PM	#4
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 253 Times in 112 Posts	Don, I don't understand your observation that the receiver is Erfurt proofed. The Reichsadler is the DWM type and the inspection stamps are correct for 1912 DWM. Could you have been looking at photos of another Luger on the web site? KFS

07-04-2016, 02:28 PM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	A 1912 dated DWM should have a serial numbered forward toggle. The transition from hidden to exposed numbering was in 1911 at the same time small parts serial numbering transitioned to the military fashion.

07-04-2016, 02:53 PM	#7
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	I am in agreement that the two digit serial number should be on the outside of the second toggle link (behind the DWM Logo) According to Jan Stills Imperial lugers about the 1912 DWM Pages 22-23 "Earliest production had the commercial style of serial number placement, Mid-production had SOME small parts with the exposed (military) style serial placement, and last production had full military style serial placement." This particular gun being SN 7954 I wouldn't really say its Mid production. But with the hands on if I find the "54" hidden on the underside of the toggle link I think it may still have a chance.

07-04-2016, 09:34 PM	#11
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	So any thoughts on whether this could be a mistake at the factory or is this just a messed with piece? I also notice one comment that has been deleted from this thread. Strange I would think all Opinions would be welcome. I certainly am not thin skinned about learning I am just a student and appreciate all comments!!

07-04-2016, 10:13 PM	#13
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Don I appreciate it I didn't mean a factory error I guess I should've chosen my words more wisely! I guess I am hoping that it can be explained by finding the correct serial numbers on the underside of the toggle. Then I may feel comfortable in the fact that it may be due to the transition from commercial to military placement. Tomorrow will tell

07-05-2016, 07:08 AM	#14
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 886 Thanks: 851 Thanked 509 Times in 272 Posts	Another case where removing part of or all a post just confuses the whole thread...

07-05-2016, 08:02 AM	#16
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Guys I appreciate the honesty in this post. Don anyone can make a mistake Doesn't reflect negatively on you in my eyes. I'm the one who jumped on a gun missing an obvious Serial number. Luckily I am still not out any cash. I am hoping that the correct numbers are tucked away under the toggle then I may proceed with the purchase. If they aren't I may just pass on it altogether

07-05-2016, 02:54 PM	#20
wayne8661 User Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Kennett Square Pennsylvania Posts: 591 Thanks: 15 Thanked 334 Times in 104 Posts	Okay so I just went and did a hands on. The pistol looks right as rain except for the middle toggle link. It is stamped with a small"1" in the recess under the toggle. Front toggle link, Extractor, Rear toggle link all stamped with the correct number, All parts minus mag (And middle toggle) stamped 54 This includes the grips. What a dilemma