Webley-Scott .455 1913 Navy Automatic

[varifleman]

Here for your viewing pleasure is my Webley-Scott .455 1913 Model MK1-N Navy automatic pistol serial number 3800 which was accepted into service in 1914. Also shown is a 7-pack of .455 Self-loading ammo dated January 30, 1919.

[Ron Wood]

Wow! Very nice...I really enjoy seeing scarce items like this.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Wow! Very nice...I really enjoy seeing scarce items like this.

I really enjoy seeing weird items like this!!!

Some of the features are obvious - grip safety, mag release, lanyard ring...But what is that lever (?) on the right side of the slide??? And the curious piece over the trigger guard on right side???

Does it have an obvious ejection port??? Or is it only in view during ejection??? (I assume it is top ejecting)...

[varifleman]

Originally Posted by postino

I really enjoy seeing weird items like this!!!

Some of the features are obvious - grip safety, mag release, lanyard ring...But what is that lever (?) on the right side of the slide??? And the curious piece over the trigger guard on right side???

Does it have an obvious ejection port??? Or is it only in view during ejection??? (I assume it is top ejecting)...

Hi Postino: According to the 1916 Webley-Scott Pistol manual diagram for this pistol I think the level is the "recoil lever bar and breech stop" and the other button-like piece is the "recoil level stop." These are used to take down the pistol for cleaning, inspection etc.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by postino

Does it have an obvious ejection port??? Or is it only in view during ejection??? (I assume it is top ejecting)...

It has an ejection port on top of the slide. This is a rare bird, and it's really cool in all its ugliness. That ammo pack is also interesting, it's amazing that they went through all that trouble wrapping it, tying it up, stamping it etc. for a measly 7 rounds. I guess it stems from the same philosophy as the magazine cut-offs on some old rifles: "Don't waste your ammunition, one round per enemy is enough".

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Olle

This is a rare bird, and it's really cool in all its ugliness.

I was reading a little bit about its history...It seems in April 1915 the Royal Flying Corps pilots needed a weapon to defend themselves against enemy planes...Machine guns had not yet been mounted (or even thought of being mounted), so the Webley-Scott was issued for aero defense...[Source: POTW, Ian Hogg]...

I thought that scene in "Flyboys" where The Black Falcon is shot with a revolver was kind of a flight of fancy, but at a mere 70mph maybe not so much...

[Olle]

Originally Posted by postino

I was reading a little bit about its history...It seems in April 1915 the Royal Flying Corps pilots needed a weapon to defend themselves against enemy planes...Machine guns had not yet been mounted (or even thought of being mounted), so the Webley-Scott was issued for aero defense...[Source: POTW, Ian Hogg]...

I thought that scene in "Flyboys" where The Black Falcon is shot with a revolver was kind of a flight of fancy, but at a mere 70mph maybe not so much...

I wouldn't be surprised. They even dropped bombs by hand, so it's not too far fetched to assume that they used handguns to shoot at other planes. It's also said that many WWI pilots liked to carry handguns, just because they didn't have parachutes. Quicker and less painful than jumping from a burning plane...

[varifleman]

An interesting observation about use of this pistol by the Royal Flying Corps. According to the 1916 Admiralty manual this pistol is supplied for the use of destroyers and torpedo boats where a sword will not be worn and therefore the pistol is carried at the left side. Sounds almost like the days of the sailing ships and boarding parties...and Errol Flynn!

[Douglas Jr.]

Great addition to any collection.

[saab-bob]

Really interesting pistol. I have seen very few for sale.
Interesting side note. Colt made some 1911's modified for that .455 automatic pistol ammo.They where sent to the English in WW1 and used all the way to WW2.
Apparently you can shoot the .455 cartridge or the .45 ACP cartridge in the 1911's,but don't try shooting the .45 ACP in the Webley-Scot! It is to powerful and will crack the frame.
Ouch!
Bob

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by saab-bob

Really interesting pistol. I have seen very few for sale.
Interesting side note. Colt made some 1911's modified for that .455 automatic pistol ammo.They where sent to the English in WW1 and used all the way to WW2.
Apparently you can shoot the .455 cartridge or the .45 ACP cartridge in the 1911's,but don't try shooting the .45 ACP in the Webley-Scot! It is to powerful and will crack the frame.
Ouch!
Bob

Varifleman and myself both own one of those Colt Commercial Government Model 1911s in 455 Webley auto caliber. Mine was made in 1914. They are an interesting piece of history, but are not heat treated, and can be destroyed(value wise) if fired with hot 45ACP ammo(after a barrel swap) leading to slide and frame fractures.

[varifleman]

Originally Posted by rhuff

Varifleman and myself both own one of those Colt Commercial Government Model 1911s in 455 Webley auto caliber. Mine was made in 1914. They are an interesting piece of history, but are not heat treated, and can be destroyed(value wise) if fired with hot 45ACP ammo(after a barrel swap) leading to slide and frame fractures.

Good advice Rhuff: Since my U.S. AEF Officer's British-proofed 1914 Colt Government Model (photos provenance posted earlier) is in such excellent condition I'll keep it as a collector's gun and not risk any damage to almost irreplaceable parts. I'll shoot my Colt WWI 1911 reissue which does just fine at the range. I also have 1 British-proofed .38 ACP 1903 Pocket Model shipped to UK in 1915 - it looks like it saw rough service in WWI; not much finish remaining but still performs flawlessly!It was most likely a British officer's private purchase pistol.

[rhuff]

I am a reloader, so I can load some "soft" rounds for these old gentlemen. I have some old Colt SAAs that I love to shoot also. If these old handguns could just talk....

[varifleman]

I found on-line an interesting article "The .455 Webley & Scott Pistol" (American Rifleman 1964) which has a chart which details both Government Contracts and Private sales deliveries by month/year/serial number. This pistol (serial number 3800) was 1 of 1919 (serial numbers 3691-5609) delivered to the Royal Navy in December 1914. It served through most of WWI.

[varifleman]

Here are photos of 1917 and 1918 head stamp .455 Eley Self-loading military ammo issued for this pistol in 7-round packets as shown in previous posting and the open recoil-activated action of this pistol. Also is shown Commander C R Samson, standing beside a single seat Nieuport 10 aircraft with this type pistol in his hand about to start on a mission over the Turkish lines in 1915. Commander Samson commanded No. 3 Squadron, Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS) Wing, based on Tenedos Island, which took part in the operations at the Dardanelles. The pistol in the photo is a .455 Webley-Scott Mark 1-N Navy automatic which is quite distinguishable by the boxy breech-block and exposed barrel.

[318is_Parabellum]

You *can* use certain .45 ACP loads in these pistols... As the FMJ .45 ACP OAL is a bit longer than the .455, mild loads with a .45 hollowpoint bullets will work. Given the fact that these W & S .455 self-loaders are 100 years old, I would be cautious in using factory loaded .45 ACP in the old girl. Modern ammo may very well prove to be too much! If I had one, I wouldn't be afraid to try some Remington UMC green box .45 ACP in it, as Remington UMC green box pistol ammo is rather underpowered compared to say, Federal.

ETA: Yours may well be entirely too nice to try the above. Mild handloads in .45 ACP with a hollowpoint would be the way to go, IMHO.

[varifleman]

Originally Posted by 318is_Parabellum

You *can* use certain .45 ACP loads in these pistols... As the FMJ .45 ACP OAL is a bit longer than the .455, mild loads with a .45 hollowpoint bullets will work. Given the fact that these W & S .455 self-loaders are 100 years old, I would be cautious in using factory loaded .45 ACP in the old girl. Modern ammo may very well prove to be too much! If I had one, I wouldn't be afraid to try some Remington UMC green box .45 ACP in it, as Remington UMC green box pistol ammo is rather underpowered compared to say, Federal.

ETA: Yours may well be entirely too nice to try the above. Mild handloads in .45 ACP with a hollowpoint would be the way to go, IMHO.

Hi Parabellum: I've got several of the original WII issue 7-packets .455 Eley MKI ammo on the way so may try a magazine of those in the old gal with the proper ammo and reload the brass.

[TheRomanhistorian]

What a beautiful pistol (I say this with no trace of irony or sarcasm). I have one in .32 ACP but have always wanted the .455 model.

Now I have to look harder. Thanks for sharing your photos and the story behind the pistol.

[varifleman]

Originally Posted by TheRomanhistorian

What a beautiful pistol (I say this with no trace of irony or sarcasm). I have one in .32 ACP but have always wanted the .455 model.

Now I have to look harder. Thanks for sharing your photos and the story behind the pistol.

Hi Roman Historian. yes, this pistol won't win any beauty contests but I like it due to its historical significance. The Webley Self-Loading .455" Mark I was recommended by both the SAC and the Chief Inspector of Small Arms and chosen over the Colt .45 ACP Model 1911 in the Briitish pistol trials. This pistol was adopted by the Royal Navy in 1912 as the first automatic pistol officially in British service. Later the pistol was also adopted by the Roayl Flying Corps and Royal Horse Artillery.