Venting My Spleen about "Tire Kickers"

[Navy]

All,

I realize that this may sound to some like the pinnacle of arrogance or at least a lot of misplaced hostility <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> , but I would like to comment on folks (you know who you are!) who enquire about a piece that is FS and request pictures, When the pictures arrive, then they ask the price, which was posted in original advert,

Then, they go into what I call a "Great Aunt Tizzie Hissie" about how over priced the piece is for the condition and a laundry list of other venial sins.

Well, I would like it noted for the record, assuming anyone keeps a record, that when I offer a piece FS, it is only to make a home for an upgrade. I do my luger stuff as a hobby and am not a dealer nor do I depend on revenues from Luger sales to put bread and wine on my table. I am a hobbyist; a collector. My profession is that of a business development consultant, for which I charge and receive an exhorbitant hourly wage.

When a tire kicker e-mails me and wants pictures, well, I go from being billable at the exhorbitant hourly rate to unbillable. In short, it costs money in the sense of unrealized opportunity costs.

So I do it any way and then the yucca-putz, after knowing the price going in and having the initial photos, says he needs more and better photos. Well, what the heck, one does what one can for the good of the order.

More pix and more aggrivation getting them uploaded...all at the expense of client billable hours.

Then the reply, "Whoa, that price is way out of line..yadda, yadda, yadda."

Point of rant: For most forum members this is NOT a business; it is infact, a money losing hobby that is about as costly as one lets it be. If someone offers a piece on the FS column, fer gawd's sake don't ask for pictures if you aren't pretty seriously interested. It wastes people's time (The only unrecoverable resource) and is a pain in the keister.

Rant switch to flight idle.

Tom A.

[Thor]

Tom, I FULLY appeciate what you went through! I agree with you completely! Another pet peeve I have is when someone wants information, you take the time to write out a detailed answer and they never say thanks, or sometimes even post again, you wonder if they got the information or even cared what you did for them. I can see where you loose money and patience with looky looes!

[Big Norm]

I am sorry Tom. As much as I respect your considerable knowledge of Lugers, I have to disagree. The rule is, and always will be, cash is king. Or there is the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rule. Always watch the direction of the cash flow and it will tell you who is the boss. When you put anything up for sale you become a commission only salesman and what you do with the rest of you time is no more my business than what you paid for the article last year or the greater fool theory of selling. It is insulting to a buyer when a salesman acts as though he is doing the buyer a favor by taking his money.

I am happy for you that you earn considerable amounts of money doing what you do. I too made considerable amounts of money doing what I did. Sometimes I had to tolerate repugnate customers. But I always tried to stay focused on what I wanted and usually got it. I had many business advisors try to alter my business plans. I listened to them and, afterwards, sorted out the bodies to what I wanted and thought what was best. But I was always curtious and polite. They are still working and I am finacially comfortable not working. They always sounded better than me but I ended up with more.

Among other things, I was a real estate investor for 25 years. Many times I felt that the world was out to get me and I always felt like I stood alone. But I was never a sissy about challenging the system and I never went to court. If you read the book "The Millionaire Next Door" by Thomas J. Stanley, Ph.D, you will see me all over its pages. I often recommend it to the select few people that I monitor. Whether or not they read it helps me select who I continue with. Few pass. They would sooner read "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" by Robert T. Kiyosai and become losers.

I too am a small collector, hobbyist and amateur historian. But now that I have sold off my business, I am wondering if I should create a bite of excitement by reinventing myself or just kick off my shoes and relax. But I want to make things happen and not have a salesman make things happen for me.

I am sorry Tom. I sincerely respect your knowledge of Lugers and will continue to enthusiastically read what you write. Maybe you are just having a bad day. I hope that we stay friends for a long time. I just had to get my two cents off.
Big Norm

[Lugerdoc]

Tom A, I agree that there are a lot of LUGER PHOTO collectors out there. Admittedly all of us are looking for bargains, but when the haggling gets petty, it's time to send them a photo of a large tractor tire without comment. Tom H.

[Navy]

Big Norm and Tom H.
Thanks for the disagreement. I like a reasoned dissent. It is a great venue when reasonable people can have legitimate disagreement and still remain quire cordial. I will take your advice on the Millionaire Next Door; it will be on my night stand soon.

To om H. I like your idea very muck. Subtle but conveys the message.

Tom A.

[Greg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom A:

a laundry list of other venial sins.

Wow Tom,

I haven't thought about a venial sin since the nuns were rapping my knuckles with their rulers back in grade school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Greg

[John Sabato]

Tom A, you could also make sure that you send the tire kickers a follow up photo that you take the photo of the Tractor tire in very high resolution so that the file size is several megabytes Since tire kickers are probably too cheap to have high speed internet service receiving a 4 MB photos would take an hour over the average dial-up connection

[Edward Tinker]

Tom, I can agree with Big Norm, selling anything leaves you open to that 10% of the population that can be difficult. I have sold a few items on e-bay and almost always, the guys that ask for; How much will it cost to send to Williams, Indiana? or How big is the whatchamacallit on the front? or I am sure shipping won't be that much, will never buy anything...
I've sold lots of things on e-bay.... And with the expense of my time to do these things, packing, shipping, etc.... Well, I can understand the frustration, but also that the seller becomes the slave to the buyer at times. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

That is why I am always grateful when people include lots of good text, price and pictures ahead of time.

But you will always still get the

[lugerholsterrepair]

Tom, I have to agree with your views as they mirror what I get every day. I have spent untold hours on the computer answering questions about holster repair, markings, types of holsters etc. As a hobbyist I do enjoy it but as Thor says I do not appreciate it when someone asks you to reply with a lengthy discourse and then does not even have the common courtesy to say thanks. I was in sales for 15 years and what might solve your problem is what we used to do..Qualify your customer. When the tire kicker asks you to work for an hour taking and uploading photo's simply ask how serious he is? If these photo's meet your expectations, will you be paying by cash, check or Visa? Generally the mention of a method of payment will bring a genuine response. Like, oh, I'm just looking or yes, I am very interested. Depending on this answer is when you decide to work for an hour or not. Try it, I think direct questions should not bother a serious collector, buyer. I have to disagree with Big Norm in one small but important respect. You are doing the buyer a favor. You have the knowledge and expertise to tell him exactly what he is getting. It isn't like a travel trailer where you must kiss the buyers butt or he will go to the other 98 trailer sellers. This is a hobby where demand is exceding supply and the knowledgable seller is something to be valued. How many posts are there where the buyer cries foul! He was screwed by the seller. When you deal with someone who has integrity, knowledge, honesty and expertise you might pay a few extra bucks but you will be glad of it in the end. Jerry Burney

[Jack Lawman]

If a rookie may weigh in.....

Tom A, you stated, "I realize that this may sound to some like the pinnacle of arrogance or at least a lot of misplaced hostility ....". In my opinion, it is just garden variety arrogance derived from the pinnacle of firearms collecting (Luger collecting).

I am also a hobbyist. I do not have a great deal of money to invest in my collection. The pieces I have shown on this forum have been acquired at a great discount. I will buy an old run of the mill Mauser or Mosin-Nagant, sell it on Auction Arms, and sometimes I make $10 - $20 after my costs (I use an 01 FFL). I deal with the same B.S. everyone else does. "Hardly worth the effort," you say? I do it because at this point, it is far more enjoyable acquiring a new piece, learning about it, and moving it along than any angst caused by tire kickers. You sell stuff online... you deal with it.

As a Luger collector, your margins are higher, your risks greater, and your time more precious (to you anyway) than a "junk dealer" (which I have been accused of in the past). I am proud of my career as a civil servant. I cannot dictate my own hourly rate and I consider myself underpaid. I operate with as high an ethical standard as any Luger collector (and have the feedback to prove it).

Please do not take this as a flame. As a new member I can say that this group, as a whole, is the most knowledgeable and professional group I have run across. You are cordial and helpful. I have made this forum one of my stops and visit often. I thank you all for the help and kind words provided.

I learned that the intricacies of Luger collecting are far beyond the capabilities of most mortal collectors. If I ever get to your level I will consider killing myself (just kidding).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that that the fly buzzing your ear on the beach in Coney Island (Brooklyn, NY) is just as annoying as the fly buzzing your ear on the beach in Atlantis (Grand Bahamas).

I would venture to say that most tire kickers are not Luger collectors and their moronic behavior is more a function of ignorance than any intent to rob you of your time and effort.

As these comments have been brutally honest, I invite like criticism.

Thank you all again,
Jack

[trigger643]

Tom,

Could you please send better pictures of the last tire kicker, and what was the price on him again?

Glen

[John Sabato]

Ladies (should there be any reading this thread) and Gentlemen...and the rest of you folks <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

May I encourage the use of the "emoticons" or smilies as some like to call them to transmit the mood of your posting... these can often indicate the level of sarcasm or humor that you intend where your mere words no matter how innocently intended, might be inferred as

Thanks for your attention <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

[Big Norm]

TomH,
I agree with you. Sometimes you have to cut the line and let the fish go. But you should give the benefit of the doubt. We have seen a lot of foolery on the internet. Many times we have made jokes of it on this forum. That is good and is part of the HUGE value of this forum. But different people have different tolerance for risk. For some people, a $1000 for a Luger is chump change. For others, it represents a significant part of their savings.

JohnS,
leaving a high resolution picture that eats up a lot of time on a computer is revenge. That is very counter productive and may lead to a physically unhealthy attitude. Its best to cut the line and move foreward.

Jerry,
You are isolating your comments to just Lugers and their accessories. I totally feel that TomA is a valuable resource of very valuable information on this forum. I feel the same about you. But you, me and others who have been on this forum for a while know TomA for the quality of person that he is. Newbies don't have that privilege. It takes time to figure out who is the sirloin and who is the hamburger.

TomA,
Thank you for not taking my comments personal. It would bother me to lose you. The book "The Millionaire Next Door" isn't a book that will help people in our age bracket. We have already decided our direction. It is great for people just starting out in their careers. I also could be a help with parents who are teaching their children a life style. It is a small book that emphasizes a long term philosophy towards getting wealthy or, at least, being better off. It is definitely not a get rich quick with little risk type of book. It is not religious. I tend to lose people who take a long time reading it. I try to keep people who devoir it. People who devoir it ask some questions but soon realize that they don't need me. Then I know I have been successful. If you read it, let me know if I am corect. You have my Email address and you are always welcome.
Big Norm

[John Sabato]

Gosh Norm,

I had hoped that the big grin at the end of that statement would let you guys know I was being sarcastic... I will try to be clearer in the future... following my own advice

[trigger643]

I certainly mean it in jest. I sell for a living, commercial finance and leasing to be specific and it's probably the hardest thing there is to move. My dealings on the internet, shows and with other traders is one of my hobbies and I know the type of "clients" we all have had dealings with at one time or another (or, in my case, on a regular basis). It's difficult enough to have to deal with these half-hearted types and window lookers for "fun". When you do it daily for a living, it can get down right frustrating and I truly sympathize.

Really want to see the fruits and nuts fall from the tree? List an assault rifle on GunBroker. One guy wanted to know if I would take a WW2 Jeep in trade (less motor).

As LugerDoc can attest, I for one, as a buyer, attempt to do my best when "shopping" to know what I A-want, B-can afford and C-what a fair value is (that doesn't mean I won't start out with the intention of a Police Luger and end up with a C96, but it was his fault for showing it to me).

[Jim Keenan]

Hi, guys,

As a newbie on this site maybe I should not put my oar in the water, but I think collectors bring this on themselves. By emphasizing the importance of every tiny mark, and demanding the maiden name of the mother-in-law of the cousin of the guy who made it, and then saying that this or that mark changes a $200 gun to a $2000 gun, then being surprised when fakes turn up, then endlessly discussing the fakes and how to avoid them, etc., etc. All in all, it really isn't surprising that any prospective buyer would want good pictures of that Swiss Cross or American Eagle or Georg Luger initials.

I do agree, though, that many of those who want pictures are either picture collectors too cheap to buy a book or just "tire kickers".

Jim

[wterrell]

There are some collectors that do not buy in bulk or indiscriminately. A purchase must be carefully considered, weighed, measured, tasted, and savored, to be enjoyed. There are those that rollick in the dynamics of the 'trade' and indulge in cunning, wit, and barter as a sister hobby to collecting Lugers.
Whenever a person does not share our narrow view of a hobby (money + Luger = trade), we should be broad-minded enough to acknowledge the varied and unique pleasures associated with the peripheral activities of barter.

[Big Norm]

Wes,
I toast a glass of Chivas Regal to you. You made your point well.
Big Norm

[jamese]

TomA,
I have to agree with Big Norm, as both a buyer and seller over the Internet (I sell in an attempt to support my buying habit) you sometimes have to tolerate the tire kickers to a certain point. But in my experience you can usually tell a true interested buyer from a tire kicker after about the third e-mail.

Tire kickers I politely send on the way by saying the item has been sold or suggest that they should inquire from another seller, because this gun or item isnâ??t really for them. I try not to offend them because you never know, todayâ??s tire kicker might be tomorrowâ??s buyer.

For what its worth����..

Jim

[Pete Ebbink]

Tom A,

You might try setting up a personal web page for each luger/rig you are trying to sell. In this web page, you post many, detailed photos and provide a lengthy text description.

Most Internet Service Providers (ISP) provide such web page features and space free with your monthly use-fees...

As you get contacted by prospective buyers, you might just simply direct them to your web page...first.

The bottom of your web page would invite "only serious buyers" to contact you further...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />