My 1913/1920 Erfurt Police...

Pete Ebbink · 08-11-2002, 02:03 PM

Got my new 1913/1920 Erfurt police luger home today.

It is serial # 4304a and is front grip strap marked as "S.Mg.773.

From Jan Still's book, Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers, on page 120, I gather this unit marking means : Prussian State (Schutzpolizie Mageburg), weapon no. 773.

I will post photos later today after I clean her up and when the light is just "right" in my back yard.

Pete Ebbink · 08-11-2002, 09:36 PM

More Photos :

Doubs · 08-12-2002, 12:45 PM

Pete, congratulations on a nice gun and great pics.... especially the close-ups.

I note that the trigger bar has the serial number "04" stamped upside down! This was likely done when the sear bar was modified to meet the new requirements of, IIRC, 1916. (Don't quote me on the year as I'm going from memory!) The mod allows opening of the action while the safety is applied.

A very nice Erfurt indeed!

Pete Ebbink · 08-12-2002, 10:18 PM

Hello Walker,

Thanks for your info. on the "upside" down 2-digit serial on the sear bar...I was wondering if some Erfurt guy got plastered the night before...

I am debating whether this is the gun I send to Ted Greene for a nice rework...if the grip strap wasn't so "brown", I would definitely think twice about having a Thor rework...

But I will think on this for a week or so before I decide...anyways...

Herb · 08-12-2002, 11:18 PM

Pete, a great find! I am going to enter an area that I am not fully clear on. The proofs on the right side of the reciever are those usually found on standard DWM Lugers of that era, and are in fact on my 1916 and 1918 DWM's. This is not what I am sure of--the Erfurt toggle train. The question being, it is commonly accepted that the Royal Erfurt Arsenal went into Luger production at about 1910, although examples such as yours are found with earlier dates. I am confused as to just when did Erfurt actually apply their own right reciever markings, or did they just continue to use DWM recievers forever?? I have recently purchased an alleged original 1914 Erfurt, all matching EXCEPT the mag (Sunday) and am anxiously awaiting it's arrival to research the markings. My references have bits and pieces related to this but nothing really difinitive. I guess that is why I love this hobby, I love a mystery! Perhaps Jan or one of the more advanced collectors sould shed some light on this. Anyway, if your Luger is original, leave it that way. While Thor does beautiful work, doing it to an original is a crime, and he just might refuse to do it.

Doubs · 08-13-2002, 12:18 AM

Herb, the first three Crown/Letter proofs on the right receiver wall of both Erfurt and DWM will appear to be similar. Each is the military inspection/proving of the pistol. It's the eagle stamp - the one furtherest forward - where you'll note a difference between Erfurt and DWM. The Erfurt eagle will appear to have a wine glass (Bar of Justice)in the left claw and a cross (Cross of Peace) in the right claw. The eagle is looking left and there is a crown above the head. According to Costanzo's illustrations, that is the only type of eagle used by Erfurt. The DWM eagles are noticeably different with one exception. A few examples of an eagle holding the wine glass and cross have been attributed to DWM and supposedly signifies the 7th Hussars but there's no discernable head and close examination shows the crown and tail to be quite different than the Erfurt eagle.

Costanzo also notes that the Erfurt eagle appears on the left side of DWM breechblocks 1915 - 1917 and also on DWM barrels 1916 - 1918. It's a pretty good indication, IMO, that Erfurt produced parts were used by DWM during the war. (I don't believe I've ever read that as being factual so I state it as my opinion.)

In summation, all true Erfurt receivers should have the Erfurt eagle on the right wall. Likewise, DWM receivers should have a DWM eagle of one type or another on the right wall. You shouldn't have any problem telling them apart.

Herb · 08-13-2002, 12:35 AM

Doubs, I have no doubt that you are correct but on which page of Costanzo did you find this info, there are many hundreds of markings to sort thru, save me some time, thanks, Herb

Doubs · 08-13-2002, 12:55 AM

Herb, sorry for not giving that information first time. The pages are 74, 75 and 76.

You can also find additional information that essentially agrees with Costanzo in Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" on pages 24, 25 and 92. Page 1 shows only one example of the DWM eagle. The Erfurt eagle is also illustrated.

Herb · 08-13-2002, 01:02 AM

Doubs, I see it, it definitely looks like the eagle is holding a martini glass and a cross in it's claws, neat. I had not noticed that before. Maybe it represents the employees having a party on Friday afternoon! Beware of Lugers made on Friday!! Thanks, Herb.

Garfield · 08-13-2002, 01:35 AM

Pete:

IMHO, you are a fool to even consider sending this off for refinishing. If you do, I will tell everyone that I know never to sell you another luger. That is not a threat, it is a promise.

AGE · 08-13-2002, 01:40 AM

Come on Garfield. That's a little strong.

Actually I agree with your sentiment, but it's his gun to do with as he wishes.

Johnny Peppers · 08-13-2002, 01:55 AM

I must admit that I am a bit puzzled as to why you would take a 90/93% original finish pistol and reduce it to 0% original finish. Spend several hundred dollars to reduce the value several hundred dollars? It is your pistol and you can do as you please, but bear in mind that you are forever turning it into a refinished Luger. That can never be changed.

Garfield · 08-13-2002, 01:57 AM

AGE:

Of course, he can do what ever he wants to do with it. I merely wanted to make my feelings known, in no uncertain terms, that I thought it the wrong course of action. Strong! Most certainly. It is his gun and it is my opionion.

Pete Ebbink · 08-13-2002, 02:03 AM

Hello Guys,

Thanks for all the good info. regarding the difference between the Erfurt eagle and the DWM eagle. Mike Krause's shop had explained this to me as well during my buying process.

Does anyone know what causes the grip strap blue to wear so badly ? Both the front and rear grip straps on this luger are very brown and almost leopard-spotted. Is this body oil or body salt corrosion ?

I agree the rest of the gun has a great Erfurt finish, but the grip strap is really a mess... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Hugh · 08-13-2002, 02:04 AM

<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> [img]frown.gif[/img] Pete, if you're taking a poll, I will definitely vote against having your Erfurt refinshed. I have Lugers with less finish that I would not consider having redone. That is a beautiful police gun, I am especially fond of that variety. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Hugh · 08-13-2002, 02:08 AM

Pete, the grip strap wear is just that, wear and corrosion from sweaty hands holding & shooting the pistol and then holstering it without wiping it off. [img]mad.gif[/img]

Pete Ebbink · 08-13-2002, 02:20 AM

Geeze, Guys,

I am bound and determined to find a shooter luger that I can get over to a guy like Ted Greene or Leroy Stout...

You are all right; this Erfurt may not be that gun...

I just want a "Total Doll Job" one day...

Thanks for all your honest opinions and advice... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Ron Wood · 08-13-2002, 04:41 AM

Pete
I'm glad you are having second thoughts about refinishing your Erfurt. That gun is far too honest to mess with IMO. I don't blame you for wanting a "TDJ" from Thor, but a mis-match or a previously refinished shooter might be a better candidate.

AGE · 08-13-2002, 11:13 AM

Pete,

If you want a TDJ or other restored gun from Thor (Ted), contact him. Often he can even supply the base gun. He recently did this for me using a 1913 DWM. I haven't even seen it yet because I'm on an extended trip (I'm a snowbird, I travel in the summer but return to FL in the fall).

Anyway, I should see my new gun one of these days and I have total confidence in Ted.

Frank · 08-13-2002, 11:22 AM

Garfield,

When are you going to learn to say what you mean, instead of beating around the bush???? [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Pete,

Don't do it!!! Find another candidate!!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

08-11-2002, 02:03 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	My 1913/1920 Erfurt Police... Got my new 1913/1920 Erfurt police luger home today. It is serial # 4304a and is front grip strap marked as "S.Mg.773. From Jan Still's book, Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers, on page 120, I gather this unit marking means : Prussian State (Schutzpolizie Mageburg), weapon no. 773. I will post photos later today after I clean her up and when the light is just "right" in my back yard.

08-12-2002, 11:18 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete, a great find! I am going to enter an area that I am not fully clear on. The proofs on the right side of the reciever are those usually found on standard DWM Lugers of that era, and are in fact on my 1916 and 1918 DWM's. This is not what I am sure of--the Erfurt toggle train. The question being, it is commonly accepted that the Royal Erfurt Arsenal went into Luger production at about 1910, although examples such as yours are found with earlier dates. I am confused as to just when did Erfurt actually apply their own right reciever markings, or did they just continue to use DWM recievers forever?? I have recently purchased an alleged original 1914 Erfurt, all matching EXCEPT the mag (Sunday) and am anxiously awaiting it's arrival to research the markings. My references have bits and pieces related to this but nothing really difinitive. I guess that is why I love this hobby, I love a mystery! Perhaps Jan or one of the more advanced collectors sould shed some light on this. Anyway, if your Luger is original, leave it that way. While Thor does beautiful work, doing it to an original is a crime, and he just might refuse to do it. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-13-2002, 12:35 AM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Doubs, I have no doubt that you are correct but on which page of Costanzo did you find this info, there are many hundreds of markings to sort thru, save me some time, thanks, Herb __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-13-2002, 01:02 AM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Doubs, I see it, it definitely looks like the eagle is holding a martini glass and a cross in it's claws, neat. I had not noticed that before. Maybe it represents the employees having a party on Friday afternoon! Beware of Lugers made on Friday!! Thanks, Herb. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-13-2002, 01:40 AM	#11
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Come on Garfield. That's a little strong. Actually I agree with your sentiment, but it's his gun to do with as he wishes. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

08-11-2002, 09:36 PM	#2
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	More Photos :

08-12-2002, 12:45 PM	#3
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	Pete, congratulations on a nice gun and great pics.... especially the close-ups. I note that the trigger bar has the serial number "04" stamped upside down! This was likely done when the sear bar was modified to meet the new requirements of, IIRC, 1916. (Don't quote me on the year as I'm going from memory!) The mod allows opening of the action while the safety is applied. A very nice Erfurt indeed!

08-12-2002, 10:18 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Walker, Thanks for your info. on the "upside" down 2-digit serial on the sear bar...I was wondering if some Erfurt guy got plastered the night before... I am debating whether this is the gun I send to Ted Greene for a nice rework...if the grip strap wasn't so "brown", I would definitely think twice about having a Thor rework... But I will think on this for a week or so before I decide...anyways...

08-13-2002, 12:18 AM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	Herb, the first three Crown/Letter proofs on the right receiver wall of both Erfurt and DWM will appear to be similar. Each is the military inspection/proving of the pistol. It's the eagle stamp - the one furtherest forward - where you'll note a difference between Erfurt and DWM. The Erfurt eagle will appear to have a wine glass (Bar of Justice)in the left claw and a cross (Cross of Peace) in the right claw. The eagle is looking left and there is a crown above the head. According to Costanzo's illustrations, that is the only type of eagle used by Erfurt. The DWM eagles are noticeably different with one exception. A few examples of an eagle holding the wine glass and cross have been attributed to DWM and supposedly signifies the 7th Hussars but there's no discernable head and close examination shows the crown and tail to be quite different than the Erfurt eagle. Costanzo also notes that the Erfurt eagle appears on the left side of DWM breechblocks 1915 - 1917 and also on DWM barrels 1916 - 1918. It's a pretty good indication, IMO, that Erfurt produced parts were used by DWM during the war. (I don't believe I've ever read that as being factual so I state it as my opinion.) In summation, all true Erfurt receivers should have the Erfurt eagle on the right wall. Likewise, DWM receivers should have a DWM eagle of one type or another on the right wall. You shouldn't have any problem telling them apart.

08-13-2002, 12:55 AM	#8
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	Herb, sorry for not giving that information first time. The pages are 74, 75 and 76. You can also find additional information that essentially agrees with Costanzo in Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" on pages 24, 25 and 92. Page 1 shows only one example of the DWM eagle. The Erfurt eagle is also illustrated.

08-13-2002, 01:35 AM	#10
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete: IMHO, you are a fool to even consider sending this off for refinishing. If you do, I will tell everyone that I know never to sell you another luger. That is not a threat, it is a promise.

08-13-2002, 01:55 AM	#12
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I must admit that I am a bit puzzled as to why you would take a 90/93% original finish pistol and reduce it to 0% original finish. Spend several hundred dollars to reduce the value several hundred dollars? It is your pistol and you can do as you please, but bear in mind that you are forever turning it into a refinished Luger. That can never be changed.

08-13-2002, 01:57 AM	#13
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	AGE: Of course, he can do what ever he wants to do with it. I merely wanted to make my feelings known, in no uncertain terms, that I thought it the wrong course of action. Strong! Most certainly. It is his gun and it is my opionion.

08-13-2002, 02:03 AM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Guys, Thanks for all the good info. regarding the difference between the Erfurt eagle and the DWM eagle. Mike Krause's shop had explained this to me as well during my buying process. Does anyone know what causes the grip strap blue to wear so badly ? Both the front and rear grip straps on this luger are very brown and almost leopard-spotted. Is this body oil or body salt corrosion ? I agree the rest of the gun has a great Erfurt finish, but the grip strap is really a mess... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-13-2002, 02:04 AM	#15
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> [img]frown.gif[/img] Pete, if you're taking a poll, I will definitely vote against having your Erfurt refinshed. I have Lugers with less finish that I would not consider having redone. That is a beautiful police gun, I am especially fond of that variety. <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

08-13-2002, 02:08 AM	#16
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Pete, the grip strap wear is just that, wear and corrosion from sweaty hands holding & shooting the pistol and then holstering it without wiping it off. [img]mad.gif[/img] __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

08-13-2002, 02:20 AM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Geeze, Guys, I am bound and determined to find a shooter luger that I can get over to a guy like Ted Greene or Leroy Stout... You are all right; this Erfurt may not be that gun... I just want a "Total Doll Job" one day... Thanks for all your honest opinions and advice... [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

08-13-2002, 04:41 AM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Pete I'm glad you are having second thoughts about refinishing your Erfurt. That gun is far too honest to mess with IMO. I don't blame you for wanting a "TDJ" from Thor, but a mis-match or a previously refinished shooter might be a better candidate. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-13-2002, 11:13 AM	#19
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete, If you want a TDJ or other restored gun from Thor (Ted), contact him. Often he can even supply the base gun. He recently did this for me using a 1913 DWM. I haven't even seen it yet because I'm on an extended trip (I'm a snowbird, I travel in the summer but return to FL in the fall). Anyway, I should see my new gun one of these days and I have total confidence in Ted. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

08-13-2002, 11:22 AM	#20
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Garfield, When are you going to learn to say what you mean, instead of beating around the bush???? [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Pete, Don't do it!!! Find another candidate!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />