BYF 42 bakelite grips

ESU · 08-26-2002, 01:15 PM

I have a reblued byf42 luger, my first, with I'm assuming bakelite grips. My question is how do I tell if these are authentic ? I'm assuming because the gun was re-blued that the grips were probably replaced as well but just in case . Would the plastic grips have any proofmarks or be numbered to the gun ? Also what would be the proper mag , I was told fxo 37 with either an alum or plastic bottom would be correct . Would the mag be numbered ? Thx.

Edward Tinker · 08-26-2002, 01:29 PM

Are there any markings on the grips?

What do they look like, inside and out?

Can you post pictures, inside and out? [img]smile.gif[/img]

ESU · 08-26-2002, 01:46 PM

No markings on the grips, working on some photos.

tracyp · 08-26-2002, 02:47 PM

ESU,

Search the old lugerforum and you'll find some pictures of originals and repros.

Frank · 08-26-2002, 03:42 PM

ESU, if the grips have a threaded hole on the inside of both grips and that threaded hole is sized for the grip screw, you have a good chance of having original grips. My concern is that some of the recent fakers may have figured this out and have made corrections in their molds. I have a pair of obvious fakes on one of my shooters and they do NOT have the threaded holes present. Good Luck!!

Pete Ebbink · 08-26-2002, 09:04 PM

Are the threaded holes on each grip on the bottom of each grip panel or do they alternate and have one at the bottom and one on the top ?

Mine has both threaded holes at the bottom of each grip panel...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Pete Ebbink · 08-26-2002, 09:24 PM

Took Tracy's suggestion and found those photos on the old Forum. The authentic grips are on the left side of each photo...

tracyp · 08-26-2002, 09:38 PM

I have three so called "Black Widow" Lugers. On one grip the top hole is threaded. Since the grips screw was used to remove the grip from the mold, I don't think it matters which whole was used.

I looked closely at the tooling marks left in the grip and it looks just like the others.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 08-26-2002, 10:20 PM

The magazine bottom should not be numbered.
Lonnie

Garfield · 08-26-2002, 10:22 PM

I seriously doubt that the "grip screw" was used to remove the molded grip from the die. At best, as far as the grip screw is concerned, the threaded hold would provide a place to put the grip screw while the grips were removed. My opinion.

tracyp · 08-26-2002, 11:04 PM

Well, Garfield I seriously doubt they were there so they wouldn't get lost. The grips screws are an interchangeable part. If they were afraid of losing them why not screw them into the frame.

Refer to "The Krieghoff Parabellum" by Gibson on page 43, far right column.

"They only features of the 1944 Type which differ from the Coarse Checked Brown Plastic Type are the lack of screw holes on the reverse side. It appears that the 1944 Type was removed from the mold with a dull instrument prior to bakelite fully setting, resulting in gouges on the inside of the grip where the screw holes would normally be found"

Garfield · 08-26-2002, 11:19 PM

So, from the quote of from Gibson how do you deduce that the "grip screws" were used to remove the grips from the die? Does that really seem practical?

tracyp · 08-26-2002, 11:40 PM

Garfield, if you lose a grip screw, you would go to the bin and get another. It's no big deal.

I believe the two holes were used to inject the mold. The grip screw was then placed into one the holes. When grip cooled, the mold was separated and the grip stayed with the side that had the grip screw. The screw was then unscrewed and grip would come lose from the other side of the mold or a flat object could be used to separate it.

If the grip screw was not used, how would you get it out. A dull instrument would be used and the gouges would be present.

Garfield · 08-27-2002, 12:31 AM

I reckon that is one way it could be done.

Pete Ebbink · 08-27-2002, 12:52 AM

Hello Lonnie !

Did you mean that the plastic-bottomed fxo magazine would not be numbered, but the aluminum-bottomed fxo magazine would be numbered ?

My BW's alum. bottomed magazine if numbered (and matching...)

Thanks,

Pete..

tracyp · 08-27-2002, 12:58 AM

Pete,

Is your BW a 41? According to Still, the 41 byf models were generally issued with aluminum botton magazines which were numbered to the gun. 42 usually had black plastic bottom magazines ( no number).

Pete Ebbink · 08-27-2002, 01:11 AM

Yes, Tracy...

Mine is a '41 byf BW...I do not recall the serial number and am hoteling it this week again. But the serial number is squarely in the range when BW plastic grips appeared....

My BW is E/655 proofed and I think the magazine is E/37 stamped as well...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Dwight Gruber · 08-27-2002, 01:12 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Frank:
<strong>ESU, if the grips have a threaded hole on the inside of both grips and that threaded hole is sized for the grip screw, you have a good chance of having original grips. My concern is that some of the recent fakers may have figured this out and have made corrections in their molds. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I have a pair of the sleaziest, cheapest, oiliest pair of black plastic grips you can possibly imagine--they are so bad that they don't even really qualify as "fake". They do, however, have the screw holes in the back of the grips (both at the bottom) although these holes are not really threaded. It is also worthy of note that they have the fine scribe line inside the outline which separates the diamonds from the outline.

Your concern about fakers getting smarter is well founded.

--Dwight

Frank · 08-27-2002, 11:23 AM

Dwight, thanks for the information!! I really didn't want to hear it, but was pretty sure it was only a matter of time.

The other thing I have noticed is the border on the fakes appear to be slightly wider than the original. Unless one would have them side by side, it's tough to tell the difference, unless you have a measurement. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />

Luke · 08-27-2002, 12:50 PM

The threaded hole on the LEFT grip of all the known-authentic grips I have examined is on the bottom. However, the threaded hole on the RIGHT grip is found on the bottom on some and the top of others. On the real grips that I have seen the threads are crisp and clean.

I have been collecting micro-photographs (600 dpi scans) of the insides of KNOWN-GOOD black grips for a joint project with John Sabato to write an article which John has agreed to convert for publication here.

If you have a set of black grips which are dead certain authentic, we could use your help.

Luke

08-26-2002, 01:15 PM	#1
ESU User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NY Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	BYF 42 bakelite grips I have a reblued byf42 luger, my first, with I'm assuming bakelite grips. My question is how do I tell if these are authentic ? I'm assuming because the gun was re-blued that the grips were probably replaced as well but just in case . Would the plastic grips have any proofmarks or be numbered to the gun ? Also what would be the proper mag , I was told fxo 37 with either an alum or plastic bottom would be correct . Would the mag be numbered ? Thx.

08-26-2002, 01:29 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Are there any markings on the grips? What do they look like, inside and out? Can you post pictures, inside and out? [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-26-2002, 10:20 PM	#9
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The magazine bottom should not be numbered. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

08-27-2002, 12:50 PM	#20
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	The threaded hole on the LEFT grip of all the known-authentic grips I have examined is on the bottom. However, the threaded hole on the RIGHT grip is found on the bottom on some and the top of others. On the real grips that I have seen the threads are crisp and clean. I have been collecting micro-photographs (600 dpi scans) of the insides of KNOWN-GOOD black grips for a joint project with John Sabato to write an article which John has agreed to convert for publication here. If you have a set of black grips which are dead certain authentic, we could use your help. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-26-2002, 01:46 PM	#3
ESU User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NY Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No markings on the grips, working on some photos.

08-26-2002, 02:47 PM	#4
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	ESU, Search the old lugerforum and you'll find some pictures of originals and repros.

08-26-2002, 03:42 PM	#5
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	ESU, if the grips have a threaded hole on the inside of both grips and that threaded hole is sized for the grip screw, you have a good chance of having original grips. My concern is that some of the recent fakers may have figured this out and have made corrections in their molds. I have a pair of obvious fakes on one of my shooters and they do NOT have the threaded holes present. Good Luck!!

08-26-2002, 09:04 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Are the threaded holes on each grip on the bottom of each grip panel or do they alternate and have one at the bottom and one on the top ? Mine has both threaded holes at the bottom of each grip panel... Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-26-2002, 09:24 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Took Tracy's suggestion and found those photos on the old Forum. The authentic grips are on the left side of each photo...

08-26-2002, 09:38 PM	#8
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	I have three so called "Black Widow" Lugers. On one grip the top hole is threaded. Since the grips screw was used to remove the grip from the mold, I don't think it matters which whole was used. I looked closely at the tooling marks left in the grip and it looks just like the others.

08-26-2002, 10:22 PM	#10
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I seriously doubt that the "grip screw" was used to remove the molded grip from the die. At best, as far as the grip screw is concerned, the threaded hold would provide a place to put the grip screw while the grips were removed. My opinion.

08-26-2002, 11:04 PM	#11
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Well, Garfield I seriously doubt they were there so they wouldn't get lost. The grips screws are an interchangeable part. If they were afraid of losing them why not screw them into the frame. Refer to "The Krieghoff Parabellum" by Gibson on page 43, far right column. "They only features of the 1944 Type which differ from the Coarse Checked Brown Plastic Type are the lack of screw holes on the reverse side. It appears that the 1944 Type was removed from the mold with a dull instrument prior to bakelite fully setting, resulting in gouges on the inside of the grip where the screw holes would normally be found"

08-26-2002, 11:19 PM	#12
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So, from the quote of from Gibson how do you deduce that the "grip screws" were used to remove the grips from the die? Does that really seem practical?

08-26-2002, 11:40 PM	#13
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Garfield, if you lose a grip screw, you would go to the bin and get another. It's no big deal. I believe the two holes were used to inject the mold. The grip screw was then placed into one the holes. When grip cooled, the mold was separated and the grip stayed with the side that had the grip screw. The screw was then unscrewed and grip would come lose from the other side of the mold or a flat object could be used to separate it. If the grip screw was not used, how would you get it out. A dull instrument would be used and the gouges would be present.

08-27-2002, 12:31 AM	#14
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I reckon that is one way it could be done.

08-27-2002, 12:52 AM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Lonnie ! Did you mean that the plastic-bottomed fxo magazine would not be numbered, but the aluminum-bottomed fxo magazine would be numbered ? My BW's alum. bottomed magazine if numbered (and matching...) Thanks, Pete..

08-27-2002, 12:58 AM	#16
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Pete, Is your BW a 41? According to Still, the 41 byf models were generally issued with aluminum botton magazines which were numbered to the gun. 42 usually had black plastic bottom magazines ( no number).

08-27-2002, 01:11 AM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Yes, Tracy... Mine is a '41 byf BW...I do not recall the serial number and am hoteling it this week again. But the serial number is squarely in the range when BW plastic grips appeared.... My BW is E/655 proofed and I think the magazine is E/37 stamped as well... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

08-27-2002, 01:12 AM	#18
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,313 Times in 430 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Frank: <strong>ESU, if the grips have a threaded hole on the inside of both grips and that threaded hole is sized for the grip screw, you have a good chance of having original grips. My concern is that some of the recent fakers may have figured this out and have made corrections in their molds. </strong><hr></blockquote> I have a pair of the sleaziest, cheapest, oiliest pair of black plastic grips you can possibly imagine--they are so bad that they don't even really qualify as "fake". They do, however, have the screw holes in the back of the grips (both at the bottom) although these holes are not really threaded. It is also worthy of note that they have the fine scribe line inside the outline which separates the diamonds from the outline. Your concern about fakers getting smarter is well founded. --Dwight

08-27-2002, 11:23 AM	#19
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Dwight, thanks for the information!! I really didn't want to hear it, but was pretty sure it was only a matter of time. The other thing I have noticed is the border on the fakes appear to be slightly wider than the original. Unless one would have them side by side, it's tough to tell the difference, unless you have a measurement. <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />