What is a Collectable Luger

During my 40+ years of collecting Lugers I have observed that most if not all written material on the subject seems to be directed toward the high income guys. If ones collection isn't all matching, near mint and taken from a German officer--It really don't count for much. I strongly disagree with this position. In 40 years of following the trade papers and major dealer lists, I observe Many thousands of Lugers have been purchased that are lesser grade Lugers. These seem to be of little interest to the more affluent collectors and dealers except to profit from their sale. My collection consists of 90+ Lugers--maybe 6 near mints, many 90% and several less %. Some of the more rare[a 1906 Bulgarian] are only 80% and not all match. In order to afford all choice condition pieces I would have to sell more than half the collection.


My point is that the little guy who likes his Lugers and has a selection of dates,models,etc that may even be import marked and non-match, counts too. Why is it that the so called shooter grade Luger can't be collectable?


Down through the years I have many times been reluctant to discuss my collection with the big collectors because mine are not all choice condition pieces.


I suggest that we make all Luger Lovers feel welcome to the Luger collecting fraternity. The little guys count too! Anyone agree or am I dead in the water?

[Robert Wiggins]

Art;

Welcome to the forum;


You have raised a question that we have all heard many times. My opinion is just that, "My opinion" and I think you will find that the many members of this forum do not "impose their views on others". That said, I will add that wherever and whatever people collect, there will always be "grading". grading allows us to separate the high quality from the low quality, and is essential in establishing value. By value I mean both monetary and condition of the piece. If we collect things we must expect and accept grading practices. This does not in anyway imply that low graded pieces and people who collect them are in anyway inferior to those with vast resources to "buy the best". In fact many a collector who does not possess the "great ones" has significant knowledge and experience to add to the collecting community. At the lugerforum we value and respect all contributors and encourage participation. In closing I would say that those who might give you a hard time are best left to their own devices because they clearly are not interested in encouraging others. Even a low grade piece can have significant value to the collector for many reasons that are personal and this should always be respected, although you must be prepared to accept the fact that the piece may never have significant monetary value.


I say enjoy what you've got, there are many who would be proud to possess a P08, no matter what condition it is in.


Regards;

[Joe]

Art,

I always enjoy hearing that a particular Luger came from a captured high ranking German officer or a shot down fighter pilot. You just dont see pictures of high ranking officers wearing Lugers, they perferred carring .32 or .380 autos. A fighter pilot trying to bail out of this disabled aircraft with a Luger on his hip would be in an intersting situation, considering the "roomieness" of his cockpit.

I puchased a "nazi" Luger a few years ago from a guy in my town whoes father brought it back from the war. He even had a nice, detailed picture of his father holding the Luger, while standing next to a German "general". The only problem was the POW was an older sergeant and the Luger was dated 1920 by the Weimar government. The seller didn't like it when I told him the prisoner was only a sergeant and not a general as he had been told all of his life. He refused to believe it, as he thought only important military figures carried Lugers.

[Marvin]

Art,


You have said a "mouthful" with your posting and I agree with you completley! I collect mainly Lugers and P.38s, but I also have a collection of the pistols used by Germany during WWII. A few of them are not in the collectible catagory for the purist, but I like them. I also WANT my pistols to have a little wear on them to indicate they have at least been carried. I like to buy the pistols that have at least 93% condition or better, but now the ones I need are out of my price range and will only allow me to buy a couple per year. Maybe this is what I will be doing.


One pistol which I have is a 1936 Luger that is the pistol that got me started into German pistol collecting and I bought it 8-9 years ago for $425. It is all matching, but the finish is at best 60%. The soldier who owned this pistol took great care of it mechanically, but he must have carried it an used it a lot. I consider this pistol one of the pistols I would not trade or sell. I also have several 99% Lugers that really look nice on the wall, but where were they during WWII? There is very little holster wear so appearently, it must have been in a drawer during the entire war. I like the pistols that have seen some use, but not abuse.


Now, as to a collectible, I feel, and I have stated this before, any Luger is collectible! They are great pistols and deserve the respect of their history. I also feel that you will find that the great folks on the Forum will accept anyone that wants to "talk" the Luger language. I like to learn the details of this pistol on how it was manufactured, how it was distributed, who used it, who captured the pistol, etc. Most of my questions can never be answered, but it is sure fun to think and talk about it on this Forum. Yes, we do get into a few disagrements once in a while on the Forum, but we still are friends with differing opinions. I learn more about Lugers from this Forum than anywhere else because we have a very knowledgeable cadre of Luger experts all over the world.


PLEASE, to all on this Forum, discuss any Luger you may have from a totally mismatch parts pistol to the absolutly best money can buy. To me, any Luger is collectible and deserves the same consideration.


Marvin

[John D.]

agree....


Personally - I have a mix of both types, more are rather "minty" pieces as well as some mis-matches and well battle scarred/marked ones... Each has a special place in a collection - and it is UP TO THE COLLECTOR to weigh their intrinsic value to him/her...


Which is worth more - a Luger that sat in a drawer/holster to retain a 98% finish - or one that actually was worn during horrendous battle conditions? This point may be debated with equal degrees of success by both sides of the collecting faternity - but in the final analysis - neither side can speak for any collector individually...


And, as Robert mentioned - anyone is welcome here... We do not "rate" folks on the "collectability" of their Lugers - but rather - each forum member has willingness to help each other out and share their combined wisdom to better make this a site for the true enthusiast...


So - Welcome Art..!!!

[Kyrie]

Hi Art!


I think all those with an interest in the Luger are welcome here, regardless of whether they are collectors, shooters - or donâ??t even own a Luger


That said, I think we need to differentiate between something that is â??collectableâ?� and something that has â??collector value.â?� There are folks who collect bits of string and pieces of used tin foil, and hence bits of string and tin foil are collectable.


So this really isnâ??t a question of what is or is not a collectable Luger (all Lugers are collectable, IMO). Itâ??s more a question of which Lugers have collector value. And it is the market that determines whether a Luger (or anything else) has collector value.


Lugers that are mismatched, refinished, or otherwise altered are still common and only the novice will offer more for one that their utility value as shooters. Lugers that are original in parts and finish are no longer common, and have value above and beyond their utility value. Some variations of Lugers were made in very small numbers, and have some collector value even if mismatched, or altered. These are just the realities of the market in Lugers, and all other things as well, and they have nothing at all to do with the â??collectabilityâ?� of a Luger.


And none of this (in my opinion, anyway) has anything to do with this forum. Iâ??m of the opinion this forum is for all those who have an interest in the Parabellum Pistole; regardless of whether that interest is in their value, their history, their mechanics, or just an interest in how much fun they are to shoot


While there are those here who have a greater interest in collecting those Lugers too valuable to risk shooting, there are also those here who wonâ??t buy a Luger they canâ??t shoot. All are welcome, and we have threads on both sides of that particular street. I confess Iâ??m a middle-of-the-road kind of fellow myself. I have Lugers Iâ??ll never fire because they are too valuable - and Lugers I bought solely to shoot. Heck - look at the photos of pistols from my collection under the â??Ownersâ?? Cornerâ?�. Two of the pistols pictured there arenâ??t even real Lugers. The ERMA KGP68A and ERMA Model LA 22 (which truthfully is one short step up from junk) only look and feel like Lugers. That was enough for me buy them, photograph them, write up descriptions, and post pictures!


So Iâ??d say donâ??t hesitate to discuss your collection here, regardless of whether it has considerable collector value, or is purely composed of shooters. Itâ??s your collection either way and Iâ??m interested. What do you have? How did you come by the individual piece? Any interesting stories?


Best regards,


Kyrie

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Of course should all Lugerinterested people be welcome here.


I would just like to point out that to people that not have the mechanical eyes for it that the american stainless stell lugers are seriusely inferior to all original Lugers that have been produced.

Personally I wouldent bend my back to pick one SS american Luger from the pavement if I found it there cause I don't find it to be worth the effort.


When it comes to condition I can only agree with the other posts as I don't find the condition that important.

I have two Colt 1900 without any original blue or finnish at all left, and even though I prefer original condition, I simply can't afford it.

So buy what you can afford, sooner or later you will find nicer items to switch it out for.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[BILL]

To someone who hasn't tuned in on this forum before it might be a little unnerving to mention something for fear it will be labeled as 'non-collectable' or 'no value'. Unfortunately, we start using the standard vocabulary when it comes the words 'collectable vs. shooter'. It is a grade distinction that, to me, means "This a Luger I can have some fun with, shoot it, not worry about a part that might break or somehow devalue the pistol" vs. "This is a Luger that is either really rare, unusually fine conition and all matching serial numbers that I would not want to damage, break, scratch or otherwise degrade by using it". Simply put, shooter vs. collectable. Most people here want to hear about all of the aspects of the hobby and it is rare to see anyone ever judge anyones tastes or interests here. It is a joy to just hear about Lugers and how they are a part of all of our lives here. Long live the Luger.

[Aaron]

I am glad to note someone else talking down American stainless Lugers. I was offered one at $300, and after examining it closely, I concluded it was crudely made, as it represented exactly the opposite of the fine workmanship and parts fit that we find so admirable in authentic Lugers. Even the magazine was a shabby copy of the real thing. American copies are no more Lugers, than cubic zirconium are diamonds.

[Johnny Peppers]

Just becuse a pistol shows considerable wear don't automatically assume that it was carried and used in combat. A friend of mine has a 1911A1 "Transition" Colt manufactured for the military in 1924. These Colts are among some of the most beautiful ever manufactured for the military. When I first saw this pistol some 30 years ago it was in 95% original condition, but was in a Model 1916 military holster which was carried under his truck seat. I last saw this pistol about 3 years ago and it is now less than 50% original finish, and in the same holster still riding under his truck seat. To see this pistol now you would automatically assume that it had made all of WWII on some soldiers hip, but in reality it was bought from a soldier that brought it home in the mid 1930's in near new condition. Also, over the years I tried many times to buy the pistol with no success.

[Hugh]

I like variety, and if I collected only "collectable" grade I wouldn't have very many Lugers. So I collect mostly what I can afford in "shooter" grade. That way I have been able to add a couple of Navys, artillerys, American Eagle, 1900 model, and Safe/Loaded to my collection along with the more "common" varieties.

[Thor]

I like both, but have no problems suguesting that we can define a difference of WHAT you collect. You could say I collect shooters, or IMPORT Markered Lugers or Minty Condition Originals. I think the clear distinction is if you get the Luger Bug and buy more than one, of any condition, and hunt for them, you ARE a Collector of Lugers. I love to shoot my Lugers, but the nicer ones I relegate to the display case when I bring them out, I treat them like fine museum pieces, I simply want to protect my investment and try and preserve them for the next generation as original and as nice as possible. After all, if we dont protect these, no one will see what they looked like when they were made, after all, they don't make them any more, as Dok says, YANNOW!! ~Thor~

AMEN agree wholeheartly each person collects what they can and what they enjoy. The fantastic part is the history of the weapon and the search for additional information.

Hi guys: I appreciate all the response. I have only been with you about 3 weeks. I still firmly believe that big $'s are directly related to the importance that some well known collectors place on the collection of others. Case in point; A couple of years ago at a major show I displayed and sold a matching 1918 Erfurt with ZN stamped above the date. I have all the major books. Only place ZN mentioned [very briefly] is in Walters Luger Book. I bought it for $350 because it was unusual. One of the leading well published Luger authorities passed buy and looked at it briefly turned away while making comment ZN Huh! I couldn't even get him to engage in conversation about it--but then it wasn't in mint condition and was after all an import. [No it wasn't Ralph--he would never do that] I kind of figured that since the guy didn't have one these in mint condition that ZN just didn't exist. I like the forum and have got to know a few guys by direct Email. What is wrong with a $350 Luger that one can sell for $425 6 months later. That is if investment is ones primary objective. I think Stainless Steel Lugers are OK--even have 2--the 1991 Mitchell and one the 1900-2000 commeratives. Know the guy who makes them--Nice guy. But then I even have a luger capgun and a water gun or two. Thanks again fellows--Lets hear it for the little guys.

[John Sabato]

Just to add something, in addition to the condition and variation, throw in the words "UNIT MARKED" and watch the price go up. Even a well worn and abused Luger gets extra money with authentic unit marks. For a while after Still's Imperial Lugers came out, you couldnt touch a unit marked Luger with a stick because the prices shot up so bad. EVERYONE had to have one and have it now so the market place reflected it. The demand has dropped a little finally so now unit marked Lugers are not as hard to find and easier to afford, so I have 2 now.


The Luger market, just like the Corvette market and the Harley Davidson market, have been taken over by those with high incomes who have dramatically changed the hobby with their big money and preferences for something better than everyone else and the desire to make a big investment that MUST return even bigger later. So us little guys get pushed right out of the hobby.


But, I still collect Lugers when I get the chance and enjoy my garden variety pistols real well.

Right on Mark!

[Big Norm]

What is this baloney you continously have with high income, little guy and working guy stuff. You say that you have 90 plus lugers and about six "mint" lugers. You do not sound like it. But are you one of those "big guys" that are pushing the little guys out? Should we be poor mouthing you? I would like to be driving a classy Italian sports car but you don't see me poor mouthing the guys who do have them. I just sit back and enjoy the view of the cars when they drive by. That is the American way.


I am a little guy, are you going to sell me one of those "mint" lugers of yours for $5 so I can achieve equality? I bet not. With guys like you it will always be the other "big guy" who should sacrifice.


The last time I looked, Ralph Shattuch had one of the finest luger collections around and he was always a working guy. Tell that to YOUR "little guy" close friends Barbara Steisand, Al Gore, Michael Douglas and so forth. The little struggling actors and politicians who are just trying to make a buck but share you feelings.


And finally, I personally enjoy this forum and its mix of beginners and pros. I have learned a lot from all of them and enjoyed joking with them. I do not think that your anti "big guy" attitude does much to promote the great discussions and fun of this forum.

Big "little guy" Norm

[John Sabato]

I have studied them for over 35 years, but couldn't afford the ones I always wanted.


but then they are also not the only type of gun in my safety deposit box ...


Each man collects for his own purposes. I "collected" these to shoot, not just look at...


All lovers of lugers are welcome in this forum, even if they don't own any... and just like them!

[BILL]

I honestly hope no one here really judges any of us by how many Lugers we own or what condition they happen to be in. Last time I checked this was called the Lugerforum, not the Luger Collector's Forum or the Luger Shooter's Forum or the Luger Dealer's Forum or anything else.