Costanzo's Book and luger markings

I--we forum members are still awaiting info and backup research to tell us what is wrong with the World of Lugers book. This forum continues to disappoint me. Self appointed experts[not yet in print] blast those who have spent years and $ to do research. They open mouth apparently without documentation in hand. Since thier mission is to save us poor slobs from being taken---it would seem that they would be anxious to rescue us. I had one direct response--worried about liability issues---well I expect so If proof is not at their disposal to prove mistaken or made up info in Costanzo's book. I wonder if Mr Costanzo reads this forum? I don't blame him for not posting? Is he not a friend of the Master Ralph? Whom do we trust in the Luger world? I still seriously want to know what is wrong with the book----anyone else agree or has the subject been forbidden as was the K word?

Art, I believe you haven't gotten any feedback, because they don't have any hard facts.


I imagine that some guy heard a dealer tell him that the book had some false facts, etc., in it, and if you hear this a couple of times, you believe it.


Every book has items that are wrong, but actual misinterpretations is fraud and I find it hard to believe that an author would do such a thing.


My Datig book has a revised section that states several items in the earlier chapters are wrong, or had omissions, but obviously not on purpose, simply that the author didn't know at the time.


Anyway, it is hard to believe that with actual facts in hand, that you (the person stating that the book has misinformation) would be held liable for stating TRUE facts.


But Art, I don't see that happening, if there were true facts, wouldn't they at least be available to Luger scholars?


Ed Tinker

[tom]

Gentlemen,


Very simply stated, Mr Costanzo's book is a *monumental* work, but like all of mankind's works, it has flaws. I, personally, do not subscribe to the "Conspiracy" theory.


As a matter of fact, in my days in the service of our government, we used to have a maxim: "Never assume conspiracy if simple mistakes or ineptidude will suffice."


Simply stated, there has been a great deal of information that has become available to serious students since the fall of monolithic communism and the collapse of the "Evil Empire". That occurred some 12 years AFTER Mr. Costanzo published the results of a life time spent collecting data from the sources that were available.


Simple question: Are hypotheses made based on incomplete information equal to an attempt to deceieve? Obviosly, the answer is a resounding NO!


There are errors in the work, one can determine, based upon information that is now available that was not at the time of publication. So what?!?


Me thinks that what is really required is a *Second Edition* with addenda and errata pages. But guess what folks...this takes time and, oh my heavenly days, MONEY and lots of it, all at the risk of the researcher who is trying to publish their book. Anyone want to sign a pledge card?


Thats enough editorial; for what its worth, Derek Seltzer and I are talking about doing a book on Navy Lugers...something with a bit larger scope than Gortz/Walter's wonderful work on the '04. We wish to cover ALL Marinepistolen from the '04 thru the end of the III Reich period. We, if we are sufficiently foolhardy to attempt to accomplish this, will be looking to this forum for assistance in terms of serial numbers,markings and photographs.


Then, 20 years from now, you can gripe about us!


Tom Armstrong

[Big Norm]

I don't think there is a conspiracy going on. I think that it is the usual put down of anothers goods. Its kinda common at gun shows all over the place and you just have to roll with it. When is the last time, if ever did you hear someone look at someone elses gun and say, "God! What a great looking gun."? It rarely, if ever, happens. I think that Art is right. Put up or shut up. Personally, the only thing that I can say bad about the Costanzo's book is that its too pricy for me but I am still accepting Christmas gifts.

Big Norm

Big Norm, If I get a chance to see your Lugers and other guns, trust me, I'll say, "What beautiful guns!"


{Except for the old crummy one that you are trying to sell that day/week/year}


I do believe that you guys are right, it all depends on what the guy that is at the table wants to tell you. And they might not be lying or telling a half truth, it is something they have heard and "believe" it is real...


Ed

[Marvin]

Art,


I have been watching this thread and have kept quite so far on this subject, but I had to some into it at this time. I agree with what the current postings have to say! I would never believe that anyone with the reputation of Mr. Constanza would include any false information into a book. This book is near 20 years old and a monumental piece of work. Yes, there has been new information since the book was printed; this is why pencil notations are made to correct these errors. As to the known errors today, I also wish someone that has this knowledge would post this information for others to note.


Don't let a few posters on the Forum "sour" you to this place. There are disagreements and always will be, but when this happens, forget about it and enjoy the rest of it. There is so much knowledge on this Forum and we need to be able to tap the resources for our enjoyement and edification of this subject. As to opinions, they are like a nose; everybody has one, ha, ha, ha.


As to books from all the firearms authors, they spend a tremendous amount of time and money to get this information out to us and I appreciate it. I am friends with several of the well known authors and they do their very best to present factual information. When there is additional information that comes to light, many of them advise of the error and try to correct it in future editions. Most of the authors belong to NAPCA and when a new piece of information comes to light, this is the first place that it is usually published.


Until unpublished information is proven to me; I will take the information printed over someone elses word. If someone else knows so much, why have they not published a book? This is the reason why I buy all the books I can and compare the information presented. If there is a descrepency, I will then ask persons that are know as experts to find out which version is correct. Art, don't let a few make you feel bad about any information they present. Many times I post speculations and theories, and that is all they are; food for thought. Some I believe and some I don't. I appreciate all your postings and we can have fun, learn a little, and make our own final determintation. Just a few of my thoughts on this subject.


Marvin

[bill m]

Hi,

I have a signed copy of this book and enjoy it very much, but have to admit that there are mistakes in it. Any book published 20 plus years ago, with information gathered 30 plus years ago, is going to have mistakes. Almost all of these mistakes where thought to be correct at the time, with mistakes in translation or transcribing numbers or letters always a possibility. One mistake is in the back containing a 42 two digit Banner, being labeled as a police E/L Luger with serial number 8012y. Well, I own 8012y and it does not have an E/L on it and is a commercial variation and not a police marked variation. I visited about this, and the information given was incorrect to start with. This information was passed on from collector to collector to author to author. The same information was used in later books also, and is wrong there also. There is absolutely no way that anyone can personally look at every Luger in their book, or holster, or proof mark, so they have to rely on other knowledgeable collector and hope the information given them is correct. That is why you CAN NOT put absolute faith in any book as it being absolutely, positively, the way they state it is, with no an's, if's or but's about it. I feel that this is a great reference book with the utmost of good intentions, but also, new information has come available to prove that some of the information that was thought to be proven one way, has been proven to be something else. That is one problem with some collectors using the older books and reference material -- it is not the "Gospel" to base all judgement on. All books are great to use as reference, to view the pictures, and to learn from, but just because it is in print does not make it correct. I admire anyone who takes the time, effort, and knowledge to print a book, and I'm sure all of these authors try to publish the most current, up to date knowledge that is available to them. Use these books, learn from them, ask questions, but be open minded as to other possible explanations when facts and documentation suggest such.

I am reluctant to add to this line of thought. I have been collecting for thirty-one years or so. I have been a member of NAPCA for most of that time and have contributed for publication, comments and results of research at my personal expense. I own an original hand signed copy of the 1977 publication of World of Lugers. Even though I was not listed as a contributor, I assisted Jim Cate in the compilation of the Police Luger serial numbers from my records. I also own a copy of John Walter's book on Lugers. My copy of his book is soiled and worn from use. The World of Lugers is as new. In 1977, both author's had the same information available to them and produced entirely different works. World of Lugers serves as a decent listing of police Luger serial numbers and an odd listing of drawings of markings found on Lugers. I found the information therein to be hearsay and unsubstantiated, in spite of the listing of many institutions and archives in the acknowledgement section. There is not found in that book one footnote substantiating any piece of information. To wit: S.D. grip strap markings indicate the property of the Sicherheitdienst (SD) of the SS. In earlier issues of AutoMag, the journal of the NAPCA, these markings were demonstrated to be the markings of German police and could not be the property markings of the SD. The author of World of Lugers chose to ignore the information published in Auto Mag. There are other smaller bits and pieces of folklore salted in with serial listings of value to collectors. I personally found it odd there were no photographs or an idex to cross-reference the various sections of his book. Walter's book is replete with resources and footnotes. Some may be subject to different interpretations, but they were included. That is why my copy of World of Lugers has sat unused for 24 years.