Baby 9mm

jimturner · 10-11-2002, 01:07 AM

Hello I'm not very Luger savy but I have owned a couple throught the years,my favorite being a .30 cal DWM that I wish I had not sold.I have a question, on the Ralph E. Shattuck web site there is a picture of Georg Luger's baby 9mm.Has that gun been located?I had always heard that it's whereabouts were unknown even to the Luger family.

Thor · 10-11-2002, 02:09 AM

Ralph owns that Baby Luger and displays with his collection. Here is a picture I took of it at a recent visit. Clink on this link!

Georg Luger Baby Luger (AKA Seven Shot Prototype)

jimturner · 10-11-2002, 06:42 AM

Thanks Thor.I wonder where the gun turned up.

Thor · 10-11-2002, 10:32 AM

Jim, I believe he has owned it since the late 1960s time frame. This gun is shown in the old "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon and he said in 1969 it "has only recently been discovered."

Edward Tinker · 10-11-2002, 10:59 AM

I am going by memory here.

Further information added:
The Luger Pistol, revised edition 1962: PG 137; Very few of these pistols were produced, reportedly not more than a dozen...

The previous statement I could not find, there is a letter from Georg Luger JR, that states; ..the holster and magazine that were given by my father, belonged to my grandfather, Georg Luger. They were the only pieces left over from the collection as we naturally had to destroy everything with the coming of the Russians...

And also in the book it states; most of the weapons...had been able to sell.. ...would have confiscated by the Russian Occupation Troops (including selling a model 1906/06 (?) seven shot...)

That the baby Luger turned up from a former GI for sale in the 60's, I remember that from a Guns and Ammo article. I will research this in a few minutes. (could not find anything about this, so that is strictly from memory).

Johnny Peppers · 10-11-2002, 01:31 PM

The pistol mentioned above is shown in Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" and is termed a "Seven Shot Prototype", and is essentially the standard Model 1906 with a shorter barrel and grip frame. Also in Kenyon's book is pictured a "Baby" which was chambered in either .380 or .32ACP. The most noteable difference in the Seven Shot and the Baby is the safety. The "Baby" is also pictured in an old issue of Shooting Times when it belonged to Carl Wilson.
I may be off on the serial number, but I believe Simpson Ltd. sold one of the "Seven Shot" pistols serial numbered 10075B within the past few years. Without serial number documentation, how would anyone know which one belonged to Georg Luger?

Thor · 10-11-2002, 02:43 PM

Johnny, I wonder if Fred Datig could lend any information on this, Kenyon mentions that the holster and spare magazine for Georg's was presented to Fred by Georg Luger Jr many years ago. Here is a picture of one of Krauswerke reproduction of the smaller caliber/frame baby you mentioned with the slider safety.32 Cal Krauswerke Baby Luger

tracyp · 10-11-2002, 04:03 PM

Ralph owns both types of "baby" lugers. I believe Michael Krause used Ralphs to make his "baby" lugers.

It would be interesting to here from Ralph how and from whom here aquired these little beauties. I wanted to ask Ralph at the last WOL feast, but everyone was keeping Ralph extremely busy.

Imperial Arms · 10-11-2002, 11:35 PM

Based on my data gathering, there are four known 7-Shot Prototypes, two in the 10000B serial range (one being the Georg Luger Pistol in Mr. Shattuck's collection) and two in the 55000B(?) serial range (one of which I have examined), all of them being 'GL' hallmarked. The two in the 55000B serial range have crests on the chambers. It is evident with all the 7-Shot Prototypes that the grip and frame were reduced and welded by DWM. It is interesting to note that a few 'GL' Lugers fall in the 55000B serial range (circa 1906/08) including a cased 1902 Luger carbine presented to President Diaz of Mexico shown in the book 'Luger Holsters' by Eugene Bender.

In regards to the 'true' Baby Lugers, it is reported that five were supposingly made in the circa 1920-1926 and serial #4 which is shown in 'Lugers at Random' has the upper receiver of a caliber .380 and a bottom receiver of .32 ACP. It is believed that the first two were in caliber .32 ACP and the next two in caliber .380. It is assumed that serial #5 was never assembled into a complete pistol and was used for parts which probably explains the incompatible parts on serial #4 as well as the likely evidence of machining. A closer examination of serial #4 is required, however, this has not been possible as a result of 'intercontinental' tensions. I have heard of Mr. Shattuck owning a Baby Luger and I wonder if anybody has examined it or asked him about it?

Pete Ebbink · 10-12-2002, 11:45 AM

In Charlie Kenyon's book, Luger - The Multi-National Pistol, on pages 60-61; there is a 7-shot baby with a Bulgarian crest that is thought to have been made in the 1908-09 time frame.

Mr. Kenyon concludes "...The author has examined the weapon, is conviniced of its authenticity and is researching its relationship to the Bulgarian contracts placed in early 1910...".

Does anyone know the serial number of this Baby ?

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Imperial Arms · 10-12-2002, 12:20 PM

Hello Peter,

I do not know the serial number of the 7-Shot Prototype with the Bulgarian crest, but I heard that it is one of the two in the 55000B serial range. The other one which I have examined has an American crest on the chamber and it appears authentic. Therefore, what I am observing is that the two pistols in the 10000 serial range have no crests and the two in the 55000 serial range have crests on the chambers. Another observation which I made (I could be wrong) was that the two pistols in the 10000 serial range were in 9 mm whereas the two in the 55000 serial range were in 7.65 mm. I shall try to obtain the specific differences between the four pistols.

Pete Ebbink · 10-12-2002, 07:11 PM

Thanks, Albert !

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Johnny Peppers · 10-12-2002, 09:04 PM

I have heard that the seven shot with the Bulgarian crest is serial number 10076B. The pistol sold by Simpson Ltd. was suppose to be 10075B, and the Ralph Shattuck pistol 10077B. I had not previously heard of a 55000B range. I believe the Porfirio Diaz carbine is serial number 55C.

Imperial Arms · 10-12-2002, 10:47 PM

Hello Johnny,

Supposingly, there was an error in the recording of the serial number of the Diaz carbine - it is in the 55000C serial range and this information was given to me by Mr. Kenyon. I made an error in my previous post showing it in the 55000B serial range - sorry. It is highly unlikely that the Diaz carbine can be serial number 55C because there are no other cased carbines recorded with a two-digit serial number followed by a suffix that are hallmarked with a 'GL'. To support my investigation regarding the serial number of the Diaz carbine, there are known a few presentation Lugers that fall in the 55000 with the suffix 'B' or 'C'.

Furthermore, I feel that more accurate information and research is required, especially the serial numbers, to determine the exact quantity recorded and characteristics of each 7-Shot Prototype. I regret that I did note the exact characteristics of the 7-Shot Prototype in the 55000B serial range. All I can remember is that it had an American eagle on the chamber; it was 'GL' hallmarked; and it may have dished toggles but I am not sure. If I were to make any assumptions based on consistencies or patterns, then the Bulgarian 7-Shot should be in the same serial range as the one with the American eagle which I examined. I also noticed that the barrel of the Bulgarain 7-Shot is thinner than the one which was for Georg Luger.

I shall try to get more information about these 7-Shot pistols and post it under this topic.

Albert

Johnny Peppers · 10-12-2002, 11:50 PM

Virtually all the pistols in the early 10000, 10000B, and C suffix carbines are different in one way or another. I am not sure that the lack of another two digit C suffix cased carbine would indicate that none could exist. The Diaz carbine is a 1902 and the 55000B would put the range far into the 1906 production run.
I know that some of the other forum members gather serial numbers, and it would be good to hear from them if they have recorded 55000B range pistols.

jimturner · 10-13-2002, 04:33 AM

I've just learned more on this Baby Luger subject in a few days than I had ever known before.As I said in my previous post I don't know that much much about Lugers but I have had an interest in them for years.I am also going to start looking around for another .30 for shooting purposes,they are a fascinating firearm to me.

Imperial Arms · 10-13-2002, 04:56 PM

Johnny,

Firstly, on page 108 of 'Lugers at Random' shows a Model 1906 'GL' Presntation Luger with 'MM' on the chamber serial #10158B. This proves that the 10000B serial range was spread over at least four years or more. Secondly, I own an original first issue 1910 Abercrombie & Fitch sales catalog which lists a 1902 Luger carbine for $45.00. As a small note, it also lists a 1900 Commercial with a 4 3/4" slim barrel in caliber 7.65 mm for $25.00. Therefore, it is not to late in the 55000C (1906 era) serial range for a presentation Luger carbine to be produced by DWM. Obviously, more serial number research is required and I do not discount the 55000 B-C suffix serial range for presentation Lugers around 1906-08

Albert

Johnny Peppers · 10-13-2002, 08:21 PM

Albert,
I hope that I didn't give the impression that I thought all the Lugers in the early 10000 and 10000B range were made consecituvely. I agree that they were made over a period of years, and the serial number range was probably set aside for Lugers of special interest. The existence of 10158B which is otherwise a standard '06 Commercial with no proofs, a gold inlay, and GL's initials still does not provide proof of any 55000B range pistols. I would appreciate any information on pistols in this range, as it appears that we both agree that the serial numbers in the 10000 (and B) range were held for special pistols and would indicate no need to jump to the 55000B range.
I also have catalogs from H. Tauscher and Stoger advertising all models of the Luger pistol, but this in no way indicates when the pistols were made. As in the case of the Thompson Sub-Machine Guns, new and unsold Thompsons were still in stock some 20 years after being manufactured.

Imperial Arms · 10-13-2002, 10:28 PM

Johnny,

The only explanation I have for the existence of a few 'GL' Lugers in the 55000 serial range is because they were included in the standard commercial production which was at this mark around 1906. I do not believe that a 'block' was set aside in the 55000 serial range in the same manner as the presentation carbines in the 9100C serial range or the various model Lugers in the 10000 and 10000B serial range. I shall try to obtain the serial numbers of the 'GL' Lugers in the 55000 serial range including the 7-Shot Prototype(s).

Albert

jimturner · 10-15-2002, 01:09 AM

In regards to .380 Baby Luger #4.I have a September 1962 copy of Shooting Times featuring the .380 Baby Luger owned by Carl Wilson at the time.No mention is made of it being a .380 top with a .32 bottom.I wonder if he knew as I do not question the fact that #4 was a composite gun? I had read in another place that it was.I think at the time the article was written he had not had the pistol very long.

10-11-2002, 02:09 AM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Ralph owns that Baby Luger and displays with his collection. Here is a picture I took of it at a recent visit. Clink on this link! Georg Luger Baby Luger (AKA Seven Shot Prototype) __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-11-2002, 02:43 PM	#7
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Johnny, I wonder if Fred Datig could lend any information on this, Kenyon mentions that the holster and spare magazine for Georg's was presented to Fred by Georg Luger Jr many years ago. Here is a picture of one of Krauswerke reproduction of the smaller caliber/frame baby you mentioned with the slider safety.32 Cal Krauswerke Baby Luger __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-11-2002, 01:07 AM	#1
jimturner User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: AR Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Baby 9mm Hello I'm not very Luger savy but I have owned a couple throught the years,my favorite being a .30 cal DWM that I wish I had not sold.I have a question, on the Ralph E. Shattuck web site there is a picture of Georg Luger's baby 9mm.Has that gun been located?I had always heard that it's whereabouts were unknown even to the Luger family.

10-11-2002, 06:42 AM	#3
jimturner User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: AR Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Thor.I wonder where the gun turned up.

10-11-2002, 10:32 AM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Jim, I believe he has owned it since the late 1960s time frame. This gun is shown in the old "Lugers at Random" by Kenyon and he said in 1969 it "has only recently been discovered." __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

10-11-2002, 10:59 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I am going by memory here. Further information added: The Luger Pistol, revised edition 1962: PG 137; Very few of these pistols were produced, reportedly not more than a dozen... The previous statement I could not find, there is a letter from Georg Luger JR, that states; ..the holster and magazine that were given by my father, belonged to my grandfather, Georg Luger. They were the only pieces left over from the collection as we naturally had to destroy everything with the coming of the Russians... And also in the book it states; most of the weapons...had been able to sell.. ...would have confiscated by the Russian Occupation Troops (including selling a model 1906/06 (?) seven shot...) That the baby Luger turned up from a former GI for sale in the 60's, I remember that from a Guns and Ammo article. I will research this in a few minutes. (could not find anything about this, so that is strictly from memory). __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-11-2002, 01:31 PM	#6
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The pistol mentioned above is shown in Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" and is termed a "Seven Shot Prototype", and is essentially the standard Model 1906 with a shorter barrel and grip frame. Also in Kenyon's book is pictured a "Baby" which was chambered in either .380 or .32ACP. The most noteable difference in the Seven Shot and the Baby is the safety. The "Baby" is also pictured in an old issue of Shooting Times when it belonged to Carl Wilson. I may be off on the serial number, but I believe Simpson Ltd. sold one of the "Seven Shot" pistols serial numbered 10075B within the past few years. Without serial number documentation, how would anyone know which one belonged to Georg Luger?

10-11-2002, 04:03 PM	#8
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Ralph owns both types of "baby" lugers. I believe Michael Krause used Ralphs to make his "baby" lugers. It would be interesting to here from Ralph how and from whom here aquired these little beauties. I wanted to ask Ralph at the last WOL feast, but everyone was keeping Ralph extremely busy.

10-11-2002, 11:35 PM	#9
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Based on my data gathering, there are four known 7-Shot Prototypes, two in the 10000B serial range (one being the Georg Luger Pistol in Mr. Shattuck's collection) and two in the 55000B(?) serial range (one of which I have examined), all of them being 'GL' hallmarked. The two in the 55000B serial range have crests on the chambers. It is evident with all the 7-Shot Prototypes that the grip and frame were reduced and welded by DWM. It is interesting to note that a few 'GL' Lugers fall in the 55000B serial range (circa 1906/08) including a cased 1902 Luger carbine presented to President Diaz of Mexico shown in the book 'Luger Holsters' by Eugene Bender. In regards to the 'true' Baby Lugers, it is reported that five were supposingly made in the circa 1920-1926 and serial #4 which is shown in 'Lugers at Random' has the upper receiver of a caliber .380 and a bottom receiver of .32 ACP. It is believed that the first two were in caliber .32 ACP and the next two in caliber .380. It is assumed that serial #5 was never assembled into a complete pistol and was used for parts which probably explains the incompatible parts on serial #4 as well as the likely evidence of machining. A closer examination of serial #4 is required, however, this has not been possible as a result of 'intercontinental' tensions. I have heard of Mr. Shattuck owning a Baby Luger and I wonder if anybody has examined it or asked him about it?

10-12-2002, 11:45 AM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	In Charlie Kenyon's book, Luger - The Multi-National Pistol, on pages 60-61; there is a 7-shot baby with a Bulgarian crest that is thought to have been made in the 1908-09 time frame. Mr. Kenyon concludes "...The author has examined the weapon, is conviniced of its authenticity and is researching its relationship to the Bulgarian contracts placed in early 1910...". Does anyone know the serial number of this Baby ? Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

10-12-2002, 12:20 PM	#11
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Peter, I do not know the serial number of the 7-Shot Prototype with the Bulgarian crest, but I heard that it is one of the two in the 55000B serial range. The other one which I have examined has an American crest on the chamber and it appears authentic. Therefore, what I am observing is that the two pistols in the 10000 serial range have no crests and the two in the 55000 serial range have crests on the chambers. Another observation which I made (I could be wrong) was that the two pistols in the 10000 serial range were in 9 mm whereas the two in the 55000 serial range were in 7.65 mm. I shall try to obtain the specific differences between the four pistols.

10-12-2002, 07:11 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Albert ! Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

10-12-2002, 09:04 PM	#13
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I have heard that the seven shot with the Bulgarian crest is serial number 10076B. The pistol sold by Simpson Ltd. was suppose to be 10075B, and the Ralph Shattuck pistol 10077B. I had not previously heard of a 55000B range. I believe the Porfirio Diaz carbine is serial number 55C.

10-12-2002, 10:47 PM	#14
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Johnny, Supposingly, there was an error in the recording of the serial number of the Diaz carbine - it is in the 55000C serial range and this information was given to me by Mr. Kenyon. I made an error in my previous post showing it in the 55000B serial range - sorry. It is highly unlikely that the Diaz carbine can be serial number 55C because there are no other cased carbines recorded with a two-digit serial number followed by a suffix that are hallmarked with a 'GL'. To support my investigation regarding the serial number of the Diaz carbine, there are known a few presentation Lugers that fall in the 55000 with the suffix 'B' or 'C'. Furthermore, I feel that more accurate information and research is required, especially the serial numbers, to determine the exact quantity recorded and characteristics of each 7-Shot Prototype. I regret that I did note the exact characteristics of the 7-Shot Prototype in the 55000B serial range. All I can remember is that it had an American eagle on the chamber; it was 'GL' hallmarked; and it may have dished toggles but I am not sure. If I were to make any assumptions based on consistencies or patterns, then the Bulgarian 7-Shot should be in the same serial range as the one with the American eagle which I examined. I also noticed that the barrel of the Bulgarain 7-Shot is thinner than the one which was for Georg Luger. I shall try to get more information about these 7-Shot pistols and post it under this topic. Albert

10-12-2002, 11:50 PM	#15
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Virtually all the pistols in the early 10000, 10000B, and C suffix carbines are different in one way or another. I am not sure that the lack of another two digit C suffix cased carbine would indicate that none could exist. The Diaz carbine is a 1902 and the 55000B would put the range far into the 1906 production run. I know that some of the other forum members gather serial numbers, and it would be good to hear from them if they have recorded 55000B range pistols.

10-13-2002, 04:33 AM	#16
jimturner User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: AR Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've just learned more on this Baby Luger subject in a few days than I had ever known before.As I said in my previous post I don't know that much much about Lugers but I have had an interest in them for years.I am also going to start looking around for another .30 for shooting purposes,they are a fascinating firearm to me.

10-13-2002, 04:56 PM	#17
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Johnny, Firstly, on page 108 of 'Lugers at Random' shows a Model 1906 'GL' Presntation Luger with 'MM' on the chamber serial #10158B. This proves that the 10000B serial range was spread over at least four years or more. Secondly, I own an original first issue 1910 Abercrombie & Fitch sales catalog which lists a 1902 Luger carbine for $45.00. As a small note, it also lists a 1900 Commercial with a 4 3/4" slim barrel in caliber 7.65 mm for $25.00. Therefore, it is not to late in the 55000C (1906 era) serial range for a presentation Luger carbine to be produced by DWM. Obviously, more serial number research is required and I do not discount the 55000 B-C suffix serial range for presentation Lugers around 1906-08 Albert

10-13-2002, 08:21 PM	#18
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Albert, I hope that I didn't give the impression that I thought all the Lugers in the early 10000 and 10000B range were made consecituvely. I agree that they were made over a period of years, and the serial number range was probably set aside for Lugers of special interest. The existence of 10158B which is otherwise a standard '06 Commercial with no proofs, a gold inlay, and GL's initials still does not provide proof of any 55000B range pistols. I would appreciate any information on pistols in this range, as it appears that we both agree that the serial numbers in the 10000 (and B) range were held for special pistols and would indicate no need to jump to the 55000B range. I also have catalogs from H. Tauscher and Stoger advertising all models of the Luger pistol, but this in no way indicates when the pistols were made. As in the case of the Thompson Sub-Machine Guns, new and unsold Thompsons were still in stock some 20 years after being manufactured.

10-13-2002, 10:28 PM	#19
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Johnny, The only explanation I have for the existence of a few 'GL' Lugers in the 55000 serial range is because they were included in the standard commercial production which was at this mark around 1906. I do not believe that a 'block' was set aside in the 55000 serial range in the same manner as the presentation carbines in the 9100C serial range or the various model Lugers in the 10000 and 10000B serial range. I shall try to obtain the serial numbers of the 'GL' Lugers in the 55000 serial range including the 7-Shot Prototype(s). Albert

10-15-2002, 01:09 AM	#20
jimturner User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: AR Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In regards to .380 Baby Luger #4.I have a September 1962 copy of Shooting Times featuring the .380 Baby Luger owned by Carl Wilson at the time.No mention is made of it being a .380 top with a .32 bottom.I wonder if he knew as I do not question the fact that #4 was a composite gun? I had read in another place that it was.I think at the time the article was written he had not had the pistol very long.