Need some expert opinions please!

El Syd · 05-26-2015, 06:09 PM

I've been hunting around the internet and after hearing some positive input about Legacy Collectibles on this forum, I'm interested in a Black Widow Rig and maybe a Kreighoff. Would any of you Luger Gurus mind taking a look at Tom's links of these and give me your thoughts. Thanks in advance for your time and years of experience. regards, syd

Black Widow Rig: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...luger-rig.html

1937 Kreighoff: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...off-luger.html

1936 Kreighoff: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...luftwaffe.html

PS - What bothers me on the Krieghoffs (except they are so pricey) is the fact that the magazine is not numbered on both pistols. Is that correct for these year Krieghoffs?

mrerick · 05-26-2015, 07:13 PM

Well, you're considering some rather nice collectible Lugers.

Legacy Collectibles is known as a reputable dealer, and has proven trustworthy from what I've heard. I have never dealt with them, so cannot give you personal experience.

Even though unnumbered, the bakelite based magazines on the Mauser you're looking at are considered matching.

People more familiar with the Krieghoff guns will be along to let you know if unmarked but E/2 waffenamt accepted magazines would be normal on the pre-war Krieghoff Lugers...

ac4142 · 05-26-2015, 07:17 PM

syd, that's a nice black widow rig. tom stands behind everything he sells period. he gets a lot of stuff in all the time so just ask him what you're looking for. i've purchased a half dozen from him. he and his sons run the shop. very nice people.

cirelaw · 05-26-2015, 08:29 PM

I own a 1937 and all looks the same! Mine has 2 identical serialed and proofed mags to the gun, however theirs has the correct proof although unumbered. With that in mind it is still desirable~They are so sweet! The 1936 and 1937 pre-war were their finest! I would go with the 1937 because of the mag and looks a little nicer~ Eric

El Syd · 05-26-2015, 09:28 PM

mrerick - thanks for your thoughts on the black widow. I know those mags are fxo37 proofed with no serial numbers. Does the finish appear to be original? Anything that would concern you? The "y" block serial numbers look in line for a 41 byf BW. Do the grips look authentic. That seems to be the easiest way boost a "regular" byf 41, that and a couple of fxo37 mags that one May have laying around.

Alright you Kreighoff experts - what say ye on the 36 & 37? I don't want a Kreighoff that I need to make excuses for! Thx to all for there prompt and informative replies. Syd

alvin · 05-26-2015, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Syd

I don't want a Kreighoff that I need to make excuses for!

If plan to buy the best of the best, then, need to find one nice sample with two matching number magazines. More expensive though.

Edward Tinker · 05-26-2015, 09:52 PM

Well, Tom is probably one of the top experts on Krieghoffs, and he is honest (disclaimer, he is a friend of mine), so, if he tells you that it is good, it is

Please buy some books and read lots on the forum, as expecting a matching magazine is not very common

. I always say, buy a book, then a luger, so buy Gibson's Krieghoff book.

Ed

PS: Please realize that most of us say Black Widow, but its a USA, made up term, but I expect you read that in the FAQ?

Edward Tinker · 05-26-2015, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

If plan to buy the best of the best, then, need to find one nice sample with two matching number magazines. More expensive though.

NO, sorry

A BW could have two bakelite bottoms and that would be matching?

A Krieghoff with two matching mags will probably cost $15,000

Start a new guy off easy, not expecting the world.

El Syd · 05-26-2015, 10:35 PM

Alvin / Ed. Thanks for your thoughts. So Kreighoff's are correct with numbered magazines. Blank bottoms (whether proofed or not), are not correct?
I understand that the BW fxo37 mags are all not numbered- right?
I did buy Gibson's kreighoff book but it is absolutely overwhelming!

Edward Tinker · 05-26-2015, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Syd

Alvin / Ed. Thanks for your thoughts. So Kreighoff's are correct with numbered magazines. Blank bottoms (whether proofed or not), are not correct?
I understand that the BW fxo37 mags are all not numbered- right?
I did buy Gibson's kreighoff book but it is absolutely overwhelming!

Have to be careful and Don't mix up Mauser vs Krieghoff - different manufactures. And proofed but not numbered (armorer replacement) are something different....

derf0018 · 05-26-2015, 11:11 PM

Yes, I think the "Black Widow" was a creation of Ralph.

Fred

Sergio Natali · 05-27-2015, 03:38 AM

Syd

First of all welcome to this Luger forum made by Luger enthusiasts.

With all the respect I only wonder why you'd like to start right from the top; I mean Kreighoff Lugers are quite rare and expensive, and if you really wish to learn about the Luger World I would suggest you to start from the bottom, so read as much as possible first, from books and from the two main Luger forums, and you'll soon discover how much there is to learn.

Then go to look for a very inexpensive P08, start taking it down and reassemble until you manage to know how a Luger works.
Just a tought, still to each his own.
FWIW

Sergio

mrerick · 05-27-2015, 09:42 AM

One thing to remember about Lugers... The more expensive they are, the more likely that something has been done to make them more rare. I'm not saying that this is what you are looking at here, but it is a general rule to understand.

"Boosting" takes place all the time. Some of the characteristics can be very subtle. For that reason, I always recommend attending "Luger University" before investing money in guns. "Luger University" consists of studying the best and most recently available reference books. They are expensive, but can save you money over time and increase your enjoyment of the history of all this.

If you are just interested in investing for financial reasons, this will probably seem like a waste of time. You can trust a reputable dealer to do the study and evaluation for you. You pay for this (perhaps 35% of the purchase price) and are much less likely to get into a problem.

The financial value of Lugers improves in ways that are difficult to predict. It's because of supply and demand. The supply is fixed, and somewhat unstable. Guns come out of collections at random intervals, and some collectible guns are lost each year to damage.

Marc

George Anderson · 05-27-2015, 02:23 PM

The unnumbered E/2 magazine with the 1937 HK is questionable.

alvin · 05-27-2015, 05:09 PM

Reading books, starting from common variations, gradually getting familiar with the subject C&R and moving towards rare variations, that style matches Chairman Mao's revolutionary pattern -- "occupying countryside first, gradually moving towards central cities". It took Mao 22 years to gain the whole control.

Jumping directly into nice rare C&R, that's Lenin's October revolutionary pattern -- uprising directly in a few big cities, setup government, then moving towards outside. That's fast.

Which way is better... depends on context...

alvin · 05-27-2015, 05:27 PM

To continue the analog... Jump start in nice rare C&R could happen in this context -- when big name collectors selling their lifetime collections... Smith collection, Sturgess collection, Schroeder collection, etc. That's great moment to jump start. In 1917, Lenin found "power is dropped on the street, we just need to pick it up". Nice rare C&R could appear in group in short period of time, past few years proved that, buyer just need to pick them up (of course, still need money, but that's expected).

cirelaw · 05-27-2015, 05:52 PM

Mags from my 1937~

El Syd · 05-27-2015, 08:32 PM

cirelaw - that's what I thought a Kreighoff mag would look like - serial numbered and proofed. not just a blank bottom run of the mill mag. Congrats on having two matching ones. just one question (and don't flame this newby), but should one of them have a "+" sign indicating the extra mag like the Mausers do? Just curious - I haven't read my Krieghoff Parabellum book yet!

To all - I do appreciate all of the responses and good advice (particularly about taking my time which is not my M.O.!). I've always liked lugers but I just want to get a pretty decent collectable that even may even have a slim chance to go up in value - everything else I buy goes down! lol, Syd

guns3545 · 05-27-2015, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Syd

cirelaw - that's what I thought a Kreighoff mag would look like - serial numbered and proofed. not just a blank bottom run of the mill mag. Congrats on having two matching ones. just one question (and don't flame this newby), but should one of them have a "+" sign indicating the extra mag like the Mausers do? Just curious - I haven't read my Krieghoff Parabellum book yet!

To all - I do appreciate all of the responses and good advice (particularly about taking my time which is not my M.O.!). I've always liked lugers but I just want to get a pretty decent collectable that even may even have a slim chance to go up in value - everything else I buy goes down! lol, Syd

Syd,

Eric's magazines are correctly marked and proofed for a 1937 manufactured gun. There were a few blued bodies magazines supplied during 1937, so either plated or blued body with upside down acceptance proof are correct.

Spare Krieghoff magazines were not marked with a + sign.

It would be incorrect to assume that the inspection and marking conventions followed by the LWaA are the same as those followed by the Wehrmacht inspectors at Mauser.

Additionally, because of the much smaller volume of HK production, their serialization was numerical from 1 to end of production which was in the 13,000 range. However this broke down in later years and it would incorrect to assume that lower serial numbers were related to earlier years and higher numbers to later years, particularly evident in 1943 and 1944.

John

cirelaw · 05-27-2015, 10:39 PM

It took me years to find a complete rig! Wait till one comes along with at least one matching, correct mag. They are out there as these. They were German air force and survived a lot better than down in the dirt. If you come across one share it. That why we are here! You have the experts above! Eric

05-26-2015, 06:09 PM	#1
El Syd User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 15 Thanks: 13 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Need some expert opinions please! I've been hunting around the internet and after hearing some positive input about Legacy Collectibles on this forum, I'm interested in a Black Widow Rig and maybe a Kreighoff. Would any of you Luger Gurus mind taking a look at Tom's links of these and give me your thoughts. Thanks in advance for your time and years of experience. regards, syd Black Widow Rig: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...luger-rig.html 1937 Kreighoff: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...off-luger.html 1936 Kreighoff: http://www.legacy-collectibles.com/w...luftwaffe.html PS - What bothers me on the Krieghoffs (except they are so pricey) is the fact that the magazine is not numbered on both pistols. Is that correct for these year Krieghoffs?

05-26-2015, 07:13 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Well, you're considering some rather nice collectible Lugers. Legacy Collectibles is known as a reputable dealer, and has proven trustworthy from what I've heard. I have never dealt with them, so cannot give you personal experience. Even though unnumbered, the bakelite based magazines on the Mauser you're looking at are considered matching. People more familiar with the Krieghoff guns will be along to let you know if unmarked but E/2 waffenamt accepted magazines would be normal on the pre-war Krieghoff Lugers... __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-26-2015, 09:52 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Well, Tom is probably one of the top experts on Krieghoffs, and he is honest (disclaimer, he is a friend of mine), so, if he tells you that it is good, it is Please buy some books and read lots on the forum, as expecting a matching magazine is not very common . I always say, buy a book, then a luger, so buy Gibson's Krieghoff book. Ed PS: Please realize that most of us say Black Widow, but its a USA, made up term, but I expect you read that in the FAQ? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-27-2015, 03:38 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Syd First of all welcome to this Luger forum made by Luger enthusiasts. With all the respect I only wonder why you'd like to start right from the top; I mean Kreighoff Lugers are quite rare and expensive, and if you really wish to learn about the Luger World I would suggest you to start from the bottom, so read as much as possible first, from books and from the two main Luger forums, and you'll soon discover how much there is to learn. Then go to look for a very inexpensive P08, start taking it down and reassemble until you manage to know how a Luger works. Just a tought, still to each his own. FWIW Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

05-27-2015, 09:42 AM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	One thing to remember about Lugers... The more expensive they are, the more likely that something has been done to make them more rare. I'm not saying that this is what you are looking at here, but it is a general rule to understand. "Boosting" takes place all the time. Some of the characteristics can be very subtle. For that reason, I always recommend attending "Luger University" before investing money in guns. "Luger University" consists of studying the best and most recently available reference books. They are expensive, but can save you money over time and increase your enjoyment of the history of all this. If you are just interested in investing for financial reasons, this will probably seem like a waste of time. You can trust a reputable dealer to do the study and evaluation for you. You pay for this (perhaps 35% of the purchase price) and are much less likely to get into a problem. The financial value of Lugers improves in ways that are difficult to predict. It's because of supply and demand. The supply is fixed, and somewhat unstable. Guns come out of collections at random intervals, and some collectible guns are lost each year to damage. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-26-2015, 07:17 PM	#3
ac4142 User Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: lincoln university,pa Posts: 24 Thanks: 2 Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts	syd, that's a nice black widow rig. tom stands behind everything he sells period. he gets a lot of stuff in all the time so just ask him what you're looking for. i've purchased a half dozen from him. he and his sons run the shop. very nice people.

05-26-2015, 08:29 PM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I own a 1937 and all looks the same! Mine has 2 identical serialed and proofed mags to the gun, however theirs has the correct proof although unumbered. With that in mind it is still desirable~They are so sweet! The 1936 and 1937 pre-war were their finest! I would go with the 1937 because of the mag and looks a little nicer~ Eric

05-26-2015, 09:28 PM	#5
El Syd User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 15 Thanks: 13 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	mrerick - thanks for your thoughts on the black widow. I know those mags are fxo37 proofed with no serial numbers. Does the finish appear to be original? Anything that would concern you? The "y" block serial numbers look in line for a 41 byf BW. Do the grips look authentic. That seems to be the easiest way boost a "regular" byf 41, that and a couple of fxo37 mags that one May have laying around. Alright you Kreighoff experts - what say ye on the 36 & 37? I don't want a Kreighoff that I need to make excuses for! Thx to all for there prompt and informative replies. Syd

05-26-2015, 10:35 PM	#9
El Syd User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 15 Thanks: 13 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Alvin / Ed. Thanks for your thoughts. So Kreighoff's are correct with numbered magazines. Blank bottoms (whether proofed or not), are not correct? I understand that the BW fxo37 mags are all not numbered- right? I did buy Gibson's kreighoff book but it is absolutely overwhelming!

05-26-2015, 11:11 PM	#11
derf0018 User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Anderson, Indiana Posts: 35 Thanks: 372 Thanked 10 Times in 8 Posts	Yes, I think the "Black Widow" was a creation of Ralph. Fred

05-27-2015, 02:23 PM	#14
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The unnumbered E/2 magazine with the 1937 HK is questionable.

05-27-2015, 05:09 PM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Reading books, starting from common variations, gradually getting familiar with the subject C&R and moving towards rare variations, that style matches Chairman Mao's revolutionary pattern -- "occupying countryside first, gradually moving towards central cities". It took Mao 22 years to gain the whole control. Jumping directly into nice rare C&R, that's Lenin's October revolutionary pattern -- uprising directly in a few big cities, setup government, then moving towards outside. That's fast. Which way is better... depends on context...

05-27-2015, 05:27 PM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	To continue the analog... Jump start in nice rare C&R could happen in this context -- when big name collectors selling their lifetime collections... Smith collection, Sturgess collection, Schroeder collection, etc. That's great moment to jump start. In 1917, Lenin found "power is dropped on the street, we just need to pick it up". Nice rare C&R could appear in group in short period of time, past few years proved that, buyer just need to pick them up (of course, still need money, but that's expected).

05-27-2015, 05:52 PM	#17
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Mags from my 1937~ Attached Thumbnails

05-27-2015, 08:32 PM	#18
El Syd User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 15 Thanks: 13 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	cirelaw - that's what I thought a Kreighoff mag would look like - serial numbered and proofed. not just a blank bottom run of the mill mag. Congrats on having two matching ones. just one question (and don't flame this newby), but should one of them have a "+" sign indicating the extra mag like the Mausers do? Just curious - I haven't read my Krieghoff Parabellum book yet! To all - I do appreciate all of the responses and good advice (particularly about taking my time which is not my M.O.!). I've always liked lugers but I just want to get a pretty decent collectable that even may even have a slim chance to go up in value - everything else I buy goes down! lol, Syd

05-27-2015, 10:39 PM	#20
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	It took me years to find a complete rig! Wait till one comes along with at least one matching, correct mag. They are out there as these. They were German air force and survived a lot better than down in the dirt. If you come across one share it. That why we are here! You have the experts above! Eric