US Test: Bannerman Sale Records

[Hugo Borchardt]

Can anyone tell me where I can see or obtain a copy of the actual US Army Archive records that legitimize the known serial #'s of the U.S. Test pistols?

I have the list of #s from Still's Central Powers pistols and Meadows US Military Automatic Pistols.

However, I would like to see the actual records to assist in an associated research project I am working on.

Thanks for any insight!

Clark

[Mike B]

Clark,
Try this link:

http://www.nps.gov/spar/historycultu...r%20ranges.doc

Mike

[cirelaw]

Clark a detailed history of the test fireing and subsequent Bannnerman sale is contained in the section 'PISTOLE PARRABELL MODEL 1900' Fred Datig's blue bound 'The Luger Pistol' chapter 3. 'Unfortunatly I don't own a scanner

[cirelaw]

Unfortunatly I dont own a scanner but i did try some sample pages

[Ron Wood]

Clark,
I assume you are looking for the actual government documents from which the known serial numbers were derived. I believe both Mike Reese and Scott Meadows observed archived records when writing their works on the Test Lugers.

Reese published rather poor copies of several of the documents and Meadows transcribed the documents in his book. Reese's book is only reference that establishes the "accepted" range. He states in his seminal work “1900 Luger U.S. Test Trials” that “Evidence received from the Bureau of Accounting sets the serial number range of the 1,000 test pieces at 6099-7098”. That is the only statement I can find that specifically cites a reference for the serial number range. Oddly enough, with all the documentation reproduced by Reese in his book, this vital piece of evidence is not presented. Without being too judgmental (I think), this reduces this “evidence”, valid or not, to hearsay.

So far we only have Reese’s unsubstantiated range to go by, and there is no evidence that this range contains contiguous serial numbers. If we are to accept his work as absolute, we will have to rationalize a couple of other inconsistencies in his account. In his section on “Sale, Receipt and Allocation” he lists “5 – Each commanding officer of the 185 troops of cavalry”, which would amount to 925 weapons. Later he gives a detailed listing of the cavalry troops that received the trial Lugers, and lo and behold, they only account for 180 troops! He discounts the missing 25 Lugers by a footnote that states “Plus 100 pistols to Springfield for exclusive tests”. This 100 would include the 10 pieces to West Point, 65 pieces to artillery units, and the single weapon issued to LTC Marion P. Mans in California, leaving 24 wandering around Springfield somewhere. This is not to debunk Reese’s entire work, but only serves to illustrate that when it comes to Test Trial Lugers, there is always some ambiguity involved. He resorted to some “guesstimation” to make his numbers come out right.

The only 5 weapons reported by serial number for one unit were those in the report of 2nd Lt Palmer of the 7th Cavalry stationed in Cuba. These numbers were 6167, 6361, 6541, 6601 and 6602. Meadows lists 4 other serial numbers, 6196, 6282, 6885 and 7018 as being in Ordnance Department records which I believe were maintenance/repair records.

The only other documented serial numbers are from the Bannerman purchase of 1910 (which includes two serial numbers, 7108 and 7147, outside of the upper limit of 7100 generally publicized). I have been tracking serial numbers and references for around 30 years and have not found any additional information.

[cirelaw]

I must say that you by far it the leading authority in this a most facinating topic. I hope and assume some may still appear as im sure there is still some confusion. Its very exciting as there is but a finite few of some of the rarer few. A cartridge counter would be tops, a 'GL' presentation piece or a gold engraved Kreighoff. So many on the menu! I thank You all for having someone with whom to share!

[cirelaw]

You are the official Keeper Of The 'test Luger' gate!

[Hugo Borchardt]

Thanks everyone! What I really would like to see is what constitutes the Bannerman sale records, and/or Reese's "Evidence received from the Bureau of Accounting". I just can't let this mystery go and am getting a bit obsessed with it. I apologize to everyone as I am going to beat this dead horse for a long time to come 'cause I believe it just ain't dead yet.

Ron is my hero! I have had the pleasure of corresponding with him and speaking on the phone and hope to meet him some day (and get his autograph )!

Reese mentions that Tauscher provided 2 pistols and 1000 rounds of ammunition for preliminary test prior to the order for 1000. And we also know that 50 were swapped with AE Funke.

Test Pistol #6282 is also listed in Capt. Littebrant test report in 1902s Armor Volume 13 where he states: "On one occasion I had two cartridges of one magazine charge fail to explode (pistol 6282) and since then it has occasionally failed." Ron pointed out to me once that this is the only Bannerman in the 6200 range. I find it extremely interestingly that Reese (1900 luger US Test Trials pg 69) lists 6282 as being in the Springfield Armory Museum at the time of publishing his book. Was it bought by Bannerman and ended up back at Springfield??? Is it still there? Guess I need to go.

1910 Congressional Serial Set lists 321 repaired 7.65 mm Luger pistols in the Springfield Arsenal inventory at the end of 1910. I'd like to determine exact date of Bannerman sale to conclude whether these guns were included in the sale in all or part. I have varying dates on the auction from 1906-1911.

1909 Rock Island Arsenal Museum catalogue lists 2 .30 Lugers there:
http://books.google.com/books?id=vxE...ed=0CDAQ6AEwAA

Armor Volume 13 can be found at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0pI...ed=0CCoQ6AEwAA

1910 Congressional Serial Set can be found at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=FZk...ed=0CDAQ6AEwAQ)

[cirelaw]

Its just like Test Luger DNA!

[Ron Wood]

Clark,
I really hope you can find the "Evidence received from the Bureau of Accounting", but I'm not going to hold my breath!

I hope everyone appreciates the intensive search you have conducted so far. Digging out the Armor Volume 13 with its bit of information is an excellent contribution. It is quite interesting to note that the 1909 RIA Museum catalog lists those two .30 Lugers as "TWO REVOLVERS, AUTOMATIC LUGER, CAL. .30"!

P.S. The only two Test Lugers currently in the Springfield Armory Museum listing are 7018 and 6885.

[Hugo Borchardt]

I'm not holding my breath either, Ron! The research is difficult to say the least.

During the test period, in addition to "Borchardt" being mispelled 100 ways, the Luger is referred to as many different names:
- Borchardt-Luger System
- Parabellum Pistol
- Magazine Pistol
- Automatic Pistol
- Model 1903 Pistol
- and like you said, Ron: as a Revolver?!?

It is mind-boggling. And I haven't even got into physical library/archive paper research yet! Even if there is anything significant out there, it will be very difficult to find.

Clark

[Edward Tinker]

ok, this subject has always fascinated me also.

I finally got a copy of meadows book (Dwight bought me one while doing research) and the pages about the sale and disposition left me even more puzzled. I don't have it here, but he lists the info that Reese has and I believe Reese got much of this info from him.

In addition, he states that numerous pistols were sold/given to officers as gifts. If someone can look that up and say exactly what it states?

ed

[cirelaw]

Ron I have tried to determine of what variations if any have surfaced in yours and any other sources. For examle the one displayed in the Land Of Borchardt site and in some cases different inspector initials and brass fitting. Would this seem to suggest different holsters were made at different destinations. One other inquiry, Who made the takedown keys. Were they provided with the firearm? Where there a thousand unmarked or any marked with maybe a cute little flamer be hidden somewhere? I am thankful for any of your thoughts and patience by everyone else! One final thought Does any one know whose initials there is! It be an interesting thread to follow!...... I just discovered the Bannerman catalog listing the lugers with acccessories can be seen in the catalogs sections.. of the Land Of Borchardt site again.

[Jasta2]

Ron,
How many of the 'Test Lugers' serial numbers have you now documented?

[Hugo Borchardt]

CireLaw:

E.H.S. was Emil Schmitten, a leather goods inspector at Rock Island Arsenal at the time.

Clark

[cirelaw]

Clark hits a home rum! I remember finding another. Ill try to track him down!!

[Ron Wood]

Bill,
21 - in the 5897 (lowest serial recorded) to 6099 range
344 - in the 6100 to 7100 range
157 - in the 7101 to 7990 (highest serial recorded) range (two of these 7108 and 7149 were in the Bannerman purchase)

These serial numbers are those of Model 1900 Lugers with US Test Trial characteristics. Only those guns listed in the Bannerman purchase can be positively identified as test pieces.

[Ron Wood]

Eric,
E.H.S. will be on the back of all Rock Island holsters. On the bottom of the front flap there usually will be the initials of other individual inspectors. Schmitten was most likely the production inspector, while the other individuals were probably final inspectors prior to shipment (just a guess).

[cirelaw]

Fantastic Forensics

[Hugo Borchardt]

Eric and Ron:

I wonder if Schmitten ever had any idea that he would be somewhat immortalized with his association with the test trials and such a rare item? Others involved may be more deserving, such as the holster's designer/s.

Reading through some posts in other militaria forums with interest in other E.H.S. stamped items, it is stated that arsenal records show that Schmitten worked at Rock Island Arsenal from 1903-1905. According to Michael Reese, the holsters were completed in January 1902 and delivered on Jan 23, 1902 to the various test facilities. Similar contradictions with other E.H.S. stamped items have led to the conclusion that the arsenal records are incomplete or incorrect concerning Schmitten. I have not seen these records, but have them on my checklist of things to try and find.

Also, I just purchased a "1903 E.H.S." stamped cartridge box off of ebay. They come up rather often and are not very expensive. Thought it useful to compare to the stitching, stamps, fonts and other characteristics we use to validate authentic test holsters.

Clark