luger without marks

pepe · 12-30-2006, 06:01 PM

A friend offered me a Luger in exellent condition but only with the manufacturer's identification (dwn).The pistol doens't present any other marks.
Not even the serial number is visible.
Is it possible that all the marks have been erased ? the pistol doens't show any risks or traces.
Is there any other way of identifying the model ?
The magazine has a wood base
I put a few photos on the internet you check them on this website:

http://img168.imageshack.us/slidesho...516384ukq.smil

Thank you very much for any help
pepe

Edward Tinker · 12-30-2006, 11:04 PM

pepe, welcome. Please place the photos here on the forum. With it "moving" it is too hard to see detail.

It is a 1906 "model", there serial number would be on the front of the frame. If not there, and NO proof marks on left or right, then it was either refinished and they were removed or it is a "lunchbox" pistol, stolen parts from the factory...

Ed

drbuster · 12-30-2006, 11:49 PM

Looks like a 1906 American Eagle in 30 caliber but it's difficult to see the eagle. Should have numbers on the frame front and in the usual hidden commercial areas.

pepe · 12-31-2006, 02:52 PM

hi Ed
here i enclosed a few pictures of the "luger with out marks"
Can you give me your opinion of the model and value?

drbuster · 12-31-2006, 03:44 PM

Looks like a "lunch box" special.

Edward Tinker · 12-31-2006, 04:00 PM

On the front of the frame, it appears there 'were" numbers.... Can we get a better, specific picture of the left side, straight on so we can see if the front was ground down?

I would guess $900-$1400 like it is? That said, guns without serial numbers are hard to re-sell later, as Pete said below in states that require registration....

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 12-31-2006, 04:05 PM

I would have no idea how (and if I could...) register this one in CA-State...

Maybe I would need to have an outfit with a gun manufacturer's licence serial it ???

MFC · 12-31-2006, 06:52 PM

Pepe,
I have learned here on this forum (I'm no expert), that if the numbers were ground off of the front of the frame that it wouldn't be even with the front edge of the receiver any more. Looks even to me. I vote lunchbox special.
Mike C.

Pete Ebbink · 12-31-2006, 07:44 PM

Hi Mike,

I do not disagree with you about this one...there are no markings anywhere on the gun (except for DWM).

It would just be a booger to register this luger here in CA.

Dwight Gruber · 01-01-2007, 07:06 AM

In the illustration "A", below, you can compare the specular reflection of the frame front with a straight line and see that metal in the serial number area has been removed, resulting in a "dished" appearance.

In illustration "B", you can see that metal removal at the top of the receiver has created a new line on the receiver, not parallel with the rest of the receiver machining.

--Dwight

pepe · 01-01-2007, 12:06 PM

Hi guys

May be you are write and the marks has been removed.

In my country is forbidden for civilian to have this caliber, so there is any
trade a tall.
The gun was offered to me with 24 very old cartridges in good condition,some marked 1910.

My guess is that pistol was stole from the army at that time, and has been widen until now.

Could it bee a 1906 royal portuguese navy or a 1906 republic of portugal navy ??
The absence of marks depreciates a lot the pistol ?

I will put more detail photos later
thanks
pepe

pepe · 01-01-2007, 01:11 PM

hi guys
here you have more pictures of the left side

Dwight Gruber · 01-01-2007, 02:15 PM

Pepe,

Thanks for the new pictures.

Are we to understand that you are in Portugal?

Portuguese Navy Lugers are 9mm. From the barrel, this gun is in cal. 7.65 Parabellum. If it is a Portuguese model, that would make it a Portuguese Army Manuel the Second (M2) Luger. With the toggle open pull up on the front of the extractor, is CARREGADA stamped on the left side?

The front angle of the gun shows clearly that the front of the frame has been ground back, leaving the receiver to extend foreward of it a bit.

It is hard to tell from the photos, does it look like a proof mark has been ground from the left receiver? Is there grinding at the back of the frame above the lanyard loop?

Could you please show us some more pictures? A closeup picture of the bottom edges of the takedown lever and trigger plate...a closeup picture of the bottom of the receiver (dismounted from the frame) including the barrel near the receiver...a closeup picture of the thumb safety with the lever in the "up" position. Thanks very much for taking the time and effort to show us so much about this gun.

The absence of markings such as the one removed from the top of the receiver means that the particular collector variation cannot be identified. As you suggest, this depreciates the value to a collector quite a bit. In the US this Luger would only be useful as a Luger to shoot.

The absence of the serial number, particuarly on the front of the frame, means that the gun would be difficult or impossible to transfer or own. In the US there are national gun laws, and also gun laws in each state. In order to own a gun whose serial number has been removed it is necessary to follow some specific complicated national regulations, and it may still not be possible to register such a gun in some states. It would be difficult if not impossible to import such a gun into the US from another country.

--Dwight

Vlim · 01-01-2007, 02:34 PM

Hi,

Lugers with removed serial numbers pop up once in a while over here in Europe. Mostly they were semi-illegal guns where the owner removed all traces of previous ownership by removing the property marks, stamps and numbers.

Some guns remained in civilian hands after both wars, so this was not an uncommon practice.

A local gun dealer over here has a completely 'anonimized' DWM P08 with even the DWM mark removed.

pepe · 01-10-2007, 05:27 PM

Hi Dwight

In did "carregada" is Stamped in the left side of the extractor.In side the gun the number 62 is stamped in several places
It is ,no doubt a Portuguese luger.
The barrel is a 4 inch wicth sugest a navy luger
i will send more photos later

LugerVern · 01-22-2007, 12:59 AM

Pepe

I see youÃ¢??re not completely satisfied with the explanation of your Luger. I will try to put your heart to ease. The collectors on this forum are most likely correct about your gun in that it is a Portuguese Army gun but letÃ¢??s make sure.

Barrel measurement is tricky to new collectors is yours 100 or 120 mm? It should be measured from breach to muzzle and be 100 for a Navy and 120 for an Army.

From your pictures your gun appears to have the 120 barrel. Please confirm?

Caliber is very important is your gun 7.65 or 9mm?

Your sight configuration is also that of an army gun as well.

Both the Army and Navy used short frames but there is a difference between the two, your gun has a type IV frame common to army guns, Navy guns used type V

Your serial number is not completely lost; you mentioned 62 being on several parts this may be the last two digits of your original number. You might gain more of the number by looking closely on the bottom of the top receiver near the lug. (This is a guess)
I need help here from the other collectors as I have not tracked this in army Lugers closely enough to know if this holds true. It is true on Portuguese Navy guns.

Many M2 ArmyÃ¢??s have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the Ã¢??bottomÃ¢?Â of their sear bars. This is the part on the left side of the gun that moves when you pull the trigger, if 62 is stamped there your gun is almost surly an army gun. Navy guns are not stamped here.

I hope this helps you understand your gun better, please let me know about the sear bar as I am interested in this feature and collecting data.

Below is the frame information I was talking about, this was cut from Ron Woods article great reading if you have time.

Vern

pepe · 01-22-2007, 06:16 PM

Hi, Vern!
Thank you very much for your information.
The Caliber is 9mm. I didn't disassemble the barrel, so the lenght of the visible part is 100 mm.
In a few hours, I will put photos of all the marks founded.
Regards, Pepe

pepe · 01-23-2007, 03:47 PM

hi vern here you have pics of all the marks of my luger i hope with those pics you can give me more information about the and history of the gun regards pepe

LugerVern · 01-23-2007, 07:03 PM

Pepe

Thank you for your clear pictures, I know it can be frustrating to get clear close up pictures.

I do not like to disappoint you, but with what we have discovered before and now the serial number on the bottom of the sear bar it seems certain that your gun is a Portuguese Army Manual II. That serial number on the bottom of the sear bar is almost like a signature; it is very unusual in Luger collecting.

There is only one last thing to discuss and that is of caliber, 7.65 or 9 mm. You seem certain that it is a 9mm that would be very unusual. If you could use a ruler to measure across the muzzle opening at its widest part and let us know what you see we can confirm your caliber, or take a picture showing muzzle and front sight we can determine for you

There is a reason those early styled Lugers persisted for so long; the balance and point ability made them great to shoot and their elegance made them a pleasure to look at and carry. There is nothing wrong with owning a Portuguese Army, in any condition

Vern

DaveinTN · 01-23-2007, 09:54 PM

Pepe,

I don't know enough details about Lugers to help you, but your photos are very very impressive. What make and model digital camera are you using to get such great shots?

Dave in TN.

12-30-2006, 06:01 PM	#1
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	luger without marks A friend offered me a Luger in exellent condition but only with the manufacturer's identification (dwn).The pistol doens't present any other marks. Not even the serial number is visible. Is it possible that all the marks have been erased ? the pistol doens't show any risks or traces. Is there any other way of identifying the model ? The magazine has a wood base I put a few photos on the internet you check them on this website: http://img168.imageshack.us/slidesho...516384ukq.smil Thank you very much for any help pepe

12-30-2006, 11:04 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	pepe, welcome. Please place the photos here on the forum. With it "moving" it is too hard to see detail. It is a 1906 "model", there serial number would be on the front of the frame. If not there, and NO proof marks on left or right, then it was either refinished and they were removed or it is a "lunchbox" pistol, stolen parts from the factory... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-31-2006, 06:52 PM	#8
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Pepe, I have learned here on this forum (I'm no expert), that if the numbers were ground off of the front of the frame that it wouldn't be even with the front edge of the receiver any more. Looks even to me. I vote lunchbox special. Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

01-23-2007, 03:47 PM	#18
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	More pictures hi vern here you have pics of all the marks of my luger i hope with those pics you can give me more information about the and history of the gun regards pepe

12-30-2006, 11:49 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Looks like a 1906 American Eagle in 30 caliber but it's difficult to see the eagle. Should have numbers on the frame front and in the usual hidden commercial areas.

12-31-2006, 02:52 PM	#4
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	hi Ed here i enclosed a few pictures of the "luger with out marks" Can you give me your opinion of the model and value?

12-31-2006, 03:44 PM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Looks like a "lunch box" special.

12-31-2006, 04:00 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	On the front of the frame, it appears there 'were" numbers.... Can we get a better, specific picture of the left side, straight on so we can see if the front was ground down? I would guess $900-$1400 like it is? That said, guns without serial numbers are hard to re-sell later, as Pete said below in states that require registration.... Ed

12-31-2006, 04:05 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I would have no idea how (and if I could...) register this one in CA-State... Maybe I would need to have an outfit with a gun manufacturer's licence serial it ???

12-31-2006, 07:44 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Mike, I do not disagree with you about this one...there are no markings anywhere on the gun (except for DWM). It would just be a booger to register this luger here in CA.

01-01-2007, 07:06 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	In the illustration "A", below, you can compare the specular reflection of the frame front with a straight line and see that metal in the serial number area has been removed, resulting in a "dished" appearance. In illustration "B", you can see that metal removal at the top of the receiver has created a new line on the receiver, not parallel with the rest of the receiver machining. --Dwight

01-01-2007, 12:06 PM	#11
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi guys May be you are write and the marks has been removed. In my country is forbidden for civilian to have this caliber, so there is any trade a tall. The gun was offered to me with 24 very old cartridges in good condition,some marked 1910. My guess is that pistol was stole from the army at that time, and has been widen until now. Could it bee a 1906 royal portuguese navy or a 1906 republic of portugal navy ?? The absence of marks depreciates a lot the pistol ? I will put more detail photos later thanks pepe

01-01-2007, 01:11 PM	#12
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	hi guys here you have more pictures of the left side

01-01-2007, 02:15 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pepe, Thanks for the new pictures. Are we to understand that you are in Portugal? Portuguese Navy Lugers are 9mm. From the barrel, this gun is in cal. 7.65 Parabellum. If it is a Portuguese model, that would make it a Portuguese Army Manuel the Second (M2) Luger. With the toggle open pull up on the front of the extractor, is CARREGADA stamped on the left side? The front angle of the gun shows clearly that the front of the frame has been ground back, leaving the receiver to extend foreward of it a bit. It is hard to tell from the photos, does it look like a proof mark has been ground from the left receiver? Is there grinding at the back of the frame above the lanyard loop? Could you please show us some more pictures? A closeup picture of the bottom edges of the takedown lever and trigger plate...a closeup picture of the bottom of the receiver (dismounted from the frame) including the barrel near the receiver...a closeup picture of the thumb safety with the lever in the "up" position. Thanks very much for taking the time and effort to show us so much about this gun. The absence of markings such as the one removed from the top of the receiver means that the particular collector variation cannot be identified. As you suggest, this depreciates the value to a collector quite a bit. In the US this Luger would only be useful as a Luger to shoot. The absence of the serial number, particuarly on the front of the frame, means that the gun would be difficult or impossible to transfer or own. In the US there are national gun laws, and also gun laws in each state. In order to own a gun whose serial number has been removed it is necessary to follow some specific complicated national regulations, and it may still not be possible to register such a gun in some states. It would be difficult if not impossible to import such a gun into the US from another country. --Dwight

01-01-2007, 02:34 PM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,046 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,946 Times in 1,197 Posts	Hi, Lugers with removed serial numbers pop up once in a while over here in Europe. Mostly they were semi-illegal guns where the owner removed all traces of previous ownership by removing the property marks, stamps and numbers. Some guns remained in civilian hands after both wars, so this was not an uncommon practice. A local gun dealer over here has a completely 'anonimized' DWM P08 with even the DWM mark removed.

01-10-2007, 05:27 PM	#15
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Dwight In did "carregada" is Stamped in the left side of the extractor.In side the gun the number 62 is stamped in several places It is ,no doubt a Portuguese luger. The barrel is a 4 inch wicth sugest a navy luger i will send more photos later

01-22-2007, 12:59 AM	#16
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Pepe I see youÃ¢??re not completely satisfied with the explanation of your Luger. I will try to put your heart to ease. The collectors on this forum are most likely correct about your gun in that it is a Portuguese Army gun but letÃ¢??s make sure. Barrel measurement is tricky to new collectors is yours 100 or 120 mm? It should be measured from breach to muzzle and be 100 for a Navy and 120 for an Army. From your pictures your gun appears to have the 120 barrel. Please confirm? Caliber is very important is your gun 7.65 or 9mm? Your sight configuration is also that of an army gun as well. Both the Army and Navy used short frames but there is a difference between the two, your gun has a type IV frame common to army guns, Navy guns used type V Your serial number is not completely lost; you mentioned 62 being on several parts this may be the last two digits of your original number. You might gain more of the number by looking closely on the bottom of the top receiver near the lug. (This is a guess) I need help here from the other collectors as I have not tracked this in army Lugers closely enough to know if this holds true. It is true on Portuguese Navy guns. Many M2 ArmyÃ¢??s have the last two digits of the serial number stamped on the Ã¢??bottomÃ¢?Â of their sear bars. This is the part on the left side of the gun that moves when you pull the trigger, if 62 is stamped there your gun is almost surly an army gun. Navy guns are not stamped here. I hope this helps you understand your gun better, please let me know about the sear bar as I am interested in this feature and collecting data. Below is the frame information I was talking about, this was cut from Ron Woods article great reading if you have time. Vern

01-22-2007, 06:16 PM	#17
pepe User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: portugal Posts: 37 Thanks: 5 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, Vern! Thank you very much for your information. The Caliber is 9mm. I didn't disassemble the barrel, so the lenght of the visible part is 100 mm. In a few hours, I will put photos of all the marks founded. Regards, Pepe

01-23-2007, 07:03 PM	#19
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Pepe Thank you for your clear pictures, I know it can be frustrating to get clear close up pictures. I do not like to disappoint you, but with what we have discovered before and now the serial number on the bottom of the sear bar it seems certain that your gun is a Portuguese Army Manual II. That serial number on the bottom of the sear bar is almost like a signature; it is very unusual in Luger collecting. There is only one last thing to discuss and that is of caliber, 7.65 or 9 mm. You seem certain that it is a 9mm that would be very unusual. If you could use a ruler to measure across the muzzle opening at its widest part and let us know what you see we can confirm your caliber, or take a picture showing muzzle and front sight we can determine for you There is a reason those early styled Lugers persisted for so long; the balance and point ability made them great to shoot and their elegance made them a pleasure to look at and carry. There is nothing wrong with owning a Portuguese Army, in any condition Vern

01-23-2007, 09:54 PM	#20
DaveinTN User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tennessee Posts: 186 Thanks: 3 Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts	Pepe, I don't know enough details about Lugers to help you, but your photos are very very impressive. What make and model digital camera are you using to get such great shots? Dave in TN.