Is It Legal To Remove Import Markings~

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 09:10 AM

I ask this because I have seen Ted aka Thors' magic. I am sure with a little effort and his luger restoration magic he can erase this federal scar!

DonVoigt · 08-03-2017, 09:33 AM

If it is "erased" no one will know.
Don't ask, don't tell.

The mark is added to assure "trace-ability"; hence it removal is almost certainly "illegal".

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 10:10 AM

Ted says "NOPE" well I gave it a shot! TKS

Edward Tinker · 08-03-2017, 10:26 AM

I think I disagree a bit - import markings are placed there for tractability for into the country. Once sold a couple of times, the importer marking is pretty useless. That said, LEGALLY BATF states the serial number can never be taken off - it does not state anything about removing importer markings (i.e. russian letters are not the serial number used, the new number can't be removed).

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 12:36 PM

http://weaponsman.com/?p=10863 Simpson spent $36k on an import printer!

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 12:59 PM

I Agree~ http://rockislandauction.blogspot.co...ort-marks.html

Olle · 08-03-2017, 04:33 PM

I have seen ATF rulings saying that it's ok to remove these markings. I think the reasoning was a bit weird, something like "the law says to put the markings on, but it doesn't explicitly say that they can't be removed". However, BATF's rulings aren't even worth the paper they're written on, so I would tread carefully.

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 05:32 PM

It all depends who is doing the enforcement! I don't want an unwelcome knock on my door!

DonVoigt · 08-03-2017, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I think I disagree a bit - import markings are placed there for tractability for into the country. Once sold a couple of times, the importer marking is pretty useless. That said, LEGALLY BATF states the serial number can never be taken off - it does not state anything about removing importer markings (i.e. russian letters are not the serial number used, the new number can't be removed).

Ed,

I have a slightly different take.
Guns that are import marked are traceable from the importer to distributor to the ultimate seller and to the first buyer - for sure.

The first buyer is always "on the hook" for the disposition of the weapon and should have sufficient records to satisfy the authorities that it is no longer in his posession!

I had a rifle traced to me last year, bought it on GB, they were checking the GB sellers records. I still had it, if not, I would have needed to " 'splain" where it went!

DonVoigt · 08-03-2017, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

It all depends who is doing the enforcement! I don't want an unwelcome knock on my door!

Like I said,
If the markings are removed to the extent you can't tell they were there- how would anyone know?

If they are not removed to invisibility, then don't try at all!

If "they" didn't want them to be permanent- a gummed sticker would pass!:evilgrin

To raise another lurking issue with marking removal(and restoration or addition)- is that not dishonest and done to "boost" the value of the article?

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 09:16 PM

Don, once they lose their virginity, like a bad tattoo, they are better left alone! It seems with most lugers they are unmarked or maybe there not advertised so! This originality will add to their value years from now as there will be some more value to attrition! I have 20 virgins and I'm a proud father~Ed should do a survey, Would you purchase a marked one if its rare! HMMMM? Where does restoration fit in? Teds lugers are works of are and maybe more than an original~Ed I'm sure your carbine hagning above your door is more prized than originals>PS Ted told me its very illegal to remove or alter the stamp!

mrerick · 08-03-2017, 10:18 PM

I think that the answer to Eric's question is mixed.

§ 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number.
No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991]

I know of no regulation prohibiting removing import marking - however - there is a rule (above) against removing serial numbers. Sometimes, the gun gets a new legal serial number when it is imported. It would then be illegal to remove it.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/att...1&d=1293641413

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 10:26 PM

Three years of Villanova Law School and it still makes no sense!!

DonVoigt · 08-03-2017, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Don, once they lose their virginity, like a bad tattoo, they are better left alone! It seems with most lugers they are unmarked or maybe there not advertised so! This originality will add to their value years from now as there will be some more value to attrition! I have 20 virgins and I'm a proud father~Ed should do a survey, Would you purchase a marked one if its rare! HMMMM? Where does restoration fit in? Teds lugers are works of are and maybe more than an original~Ed I'm sure your carbine hagning above your door is more prized than originals>PS Ted told me its very illegal to remove or alter the stamp!

yes,
I own several lugers with import markings, they were either :
-cheap
-scarce
-I wanted it !

cirelaw · 08-03-2017, 10:35 PM

There will always be a buyer for a pretty luger~

Thor · 08-04-2017, 11:17 AM

ATF says it is illegal to transfer a firearm that has had the markings removed. You can claim you did know but not worth it to me , I like living outside a place with bars, but hey, what works for you.

Rick W. · 08-04-2017, 01:22 PM

Just because one files or whatever, removes stamped numbers on a metal object; one should not assume the data is not still there and cannot be read at a later time if needbe.

DonVoigt · 08-04-2017, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Just because one files or whatever, removes stamped numbers on a metal object; one should not assume the data is not still there and cannot be read at a later time if needbe.

Most import markings are no longer stamped, but laser or roto engraved.

Makes no difference to the legality of removal though.

Rick W. · 08-04-2017, 02:24 PM

I suspect displacement......is displacement; and is detectable. As most know, with the right equipment/knowledge, anything is possible.

Seems to be a moot point to most anyway.

cirelaw · 08-04-2017, 02:33 PM

Every wound leaves a scar!!

08-03-2017, 09:10 AM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Is It Legal To Remove Import Markings~ I ask this because I have seen Ted aka Thors' magic. I am sure with a little effort and his luger restoration magic he can erase this federal scar!

08-03-2017, 09:33 AM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,678 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,348 Times in 2,038 Posts	If it is "erased" no one will know. Don't ask, don't tell. The mark is added to assure "trace-ability"; hence it removal is almost certainly "illegal". __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

08-03-2017, 12:36 PM	#5
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	http://weaponsman.com/?p=10863 Simpson spent $36k on an import printer! Attached Thumbnails

08-03-2017, 12:59 PM	#6
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I Agree~ http://rockislandauction.blogspot.co...ort-marks.html Attached Thumbnails

08-03-2017, 04:33 PM	#7
Olle User Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 1,149 Thanks: 159 Thanked 663 Times in 318 Posts	I have seen ATF rulings saying that it's ok to remove these markings. I think the reasoning was a bit weird, something like "the law says to put the markings on, but it doesn't explicitly say that they can't be removed". However, BATF's rulings aren't even worth the paper they're written on, so I would tread carefully. __________________ Deer Hollow Enterprises, LLC Gun repair and restoration

08-03-2017, 10:10 AM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Ted says "NOPE" well I gave it a shot! TKS

08-03-2017, 10:26 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I think I disagree a bit - import markings are placed there for tractability for into the country. Once sold a couple of times, the importer marking is pretty useless. That said, LEGALLY BATF states the serial number can never be taken off - it does not state anything about removing importer markings (i.e. russian letters are not the serial number used, the new number can't be removed).

08-03-2017, 05:32 PM	#8
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	It all depends who is doing the enforcement! I don't want an unwelcome knock on my door!

08-03-2017, 09:16 PM	#11
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Don, once they lose their virginity, like a bad tattoo, they are better left alone! It seems with most lugers they are unmarked or maybe there not advertised so! This originality will add to their value years from now as there will be some more value to attrition! I have 20 virgins and I'm a proud father~Ed should do a survey, Would you purchase a marked one if its rare! HMMMM? Where does restoration fit in? Teds lugers are works of are and maybe more than an original~Ed I'm sure your carbine hagning above your door is more prized than originals>PS Ted told me its very illegal to remove or alter the stamp!

08-03-2017, 10:18 PM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	I think that the answer to Eric's question is mixed. § 478.34 Removed, obliterated, or altered serial number. No person shall knowingly transport, ship, or receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered, or possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. [T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991] I know of no regulation prohibiting removing import marking - however - there is a rule (above) against removing serial numbers. Sometimes, the gun gets a new legal serial number when it is imported. It would then be illegal to remove it. https://thefiringline.com/forums/att...1&d=1293641413 __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-03-2017, 10:26 PM	#13
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Three years of Villanova Law School and it still makes no sense!!

08-03-2017, 10:35 PM	#15
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	There will always be a buyer for a pretty luger~

08-04-2017, 11:17 AM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	ATF says it is illegal to transfer a firearm that has had the markings removed. You can claim you did know but not worth it to me , I like living outside a place with bars, but hey, what works for you. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-04-2017, 01:22 PM	#17
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Just because one files or whatever, removes stamped numbers on a metal object; one should not assume the data is not still there and cannot be read at a later time if needbe.

08-04-2017, 02:24 PM	#19
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	I suspect displacement......is displacement; and is detectable. As most know, with the right equipment/knowledge, anything is possible. Seems to be a moot point to most anyway.

08-04-2017, 02:33 PM	#20
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Every wound leaves a scar!!