Mauser 42 Kriegsmarine Marked Luger

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 05:16 PM

I just picked up a very nice Kriegsmarine pistol which has a marking that I can't identify. The pistol is a Mauser 42 P.08 dated 1939 with the following markings:
S/N 5666
Right Frame WaA E/655 repeated twice followed by a standard Heer test proof
Rear Grip Strap N.3894
Front Grip Strap S XIX
Magazine: FXO WaA E/37 - there are two mags both marked the same. The base of the mag is an unusual black bakelite. I've never seen one like this before.
It came in a 1939 dated holster marked on the back Karl Akva, Bad Kreuznach, WaA266 and the Kriegsmarine E/M.
Does anyone know what the S XIX on the front gripstrap might mean?
Here are some pictures - not great as I had to use my scanner.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navywhole.JPG

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 05:18 PM

Right Frame
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navyrightframe.JPG

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 05:19 PM

Left frame
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyLeftframe.JPG

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 05:21 PM

Top markings
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyTop.JPG

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 05:23 PM

I don't think that the magazine is correct for the gun - both mags are identical but have no serial numbers
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navymagbottom.JPG

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 05:25 PM

Finally, these are the markings on the back of the holster - the real colour is dark brown.
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyHolster.JPG

kidvett · 01-07-2003, 05:28 PM

Hello John,

PICS of those front & backstrap would be appreciated. FXO E/37 mags are associated with the BYF ( 41 & 42 dated ) Mausers. Yours should have the 122 type series of mag ( if I'm not mistaken ) 1939 42 are quite scrace in my area

kidvett

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 06:07 PM

I figured out how to scan the grip strap markings so here they are:
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/FrontGripStrap.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BackGripStrap.JPG

kidvett · 01-08-2003, 12:20 AM

John,

I'm no expert in NAVY's but it would indicate that your Mauser was issued to a NORTH SEA unit. U-BOATS???

Dont forget to check your Private Messages...

kidvett

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 05:14 AM

Derek Seltzer very kindly asked some people about the S XIX marking and James Cate came back with the suggestion that this may be an unofficial mark relating to a ship. I'd love it to be a sub but I think that would be a U marking and not an S. In any event, given the efforts of my Dad and others in the Royal Navy, it is highly unlikely that a U Boat issued 1939 Luger would not be at the bottom of the Atlantic. I'm inclined to believe that it is a ship marking and my inclination is that, if so, it may refer to a Schnellboot or S Boat as these operated extensively in the North See.
Another suggestion from Bob Burden was that it could be an SD Police marking as districts in Dusseldorf were numbered Roman style.

Frank · 01-08-2003, 07:04 AM

Hello John, nice Luger!! Kidvette was absolutely correct regarding the fxo magazines. The magazine should a blue folded metal type with an aluminum bottom and not having a center fastening pin. The acceptance mark on the bottom should be a stick eagle-over-63 (SE/63) or a stick eagle-over-655 (SE/655). Also the serial number should contain a script letter. This appears only in one place, on the frame, below the barrel just under the numbers.

If this letter is between "P" and "W" the magazine markings should not be SE/655

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 02:45 PM

Thanks Frank. There is a letter below the serial number on the front. I'm not good at reading script but I looked up a chart and it seems to be an L.

Frank · 01-08-2003, 06:01 PM

Hi again John! "L" was not one of your choices!! The 1939, Code 42 Lugers began life in the late "P" alpha (P-Block) and stopped in the late "Z" alpha (Z-Block). Could it be an "R", lower case, of course? All Military Mauser Luger suffixes are lower case!

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 06:11 PM

Hi Frank - Thanks for your perseverance. I looked again and it's a T.

Frank · 01-08-2003, 06:40 PM

John, your magazine should have a SE/63 for an acceptance mark. Now comes the fun!! The 1937, Code S/42 was also made in the T-Block. To differentiate, the "SE/63" comes in 3 sizes. The small size is for the 1937 and the medium and large size is for the 1939. Unless one is familiar with these differences, it is difficult to immediately tell by inspection. I'll get some magazines out and make some measurements!

Hugh · 01-09-2003, 12:00 AM

John & Frank, I have an excellent picture showing a comparasion of the three SE63 marks, but cannot access the Forum picture upload page. When it is again available, I will post it.

Frank · 01-09-2003, 08:30 AM

Hugh, thanks, I'll be waiting patiently. Or at least as patiently as I can wait!!!!

RockinWR · 01-09-2003, 11:29 PM

JohnF/Frank,
- While you're waiting, you may want to visit the "other" forum @www.armscenter.com. Running a thread by "Bohemian" under the "Axis Pistols 1933-1945" titled "CZ-27 marked S XIX STAR". Hearing undocumented suggestions this S XIX is Siamese. Seems a stretch to me; but, Never say never!!!
JohnF,
- Would you verify and confirm this P.08's S/N letter block as "t" again? Trust you're using the Tech Info sheets or equivalent as a cross-reference. Picture of the right side is too grainy for me to read the Slide's acceptance stamps <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> . Are they sE/63, sE/655, sE/swastika or sE/655, s/E655, sE/swastika??? Reason: "t" block would be the earliest example I've run across for a sE/655, sE/655,sE/s acceptance sequence. This sequence started at the "w" block and on for the 1939-42 code gun from data I have. Want to verify whether this is a transition example of WaA Inspectors given normal mfg. progress. The "x" and the "z" suffix mark can sometimes look like a "t" when wear affects the marking. Don't ya just love ID'g Luger suffix letters. Takes a strong glass..magnifier or sometimes otherwise. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" />
- GENERAL rule of thumb is the mag acceptance will be the same as the first(left most) slide acceptance stamp. Agree with all said to date about fxo mag's coming on too late and sE/63's contemporary to the "t" block(s).
- I have not seen this S XIX marking before. I too have no source of documentation either. However, I do observe in Buxton-Vol.3 The P.38 Pistol-Distribution 1945-1990... on Pgs. 41-44 a series of front grip strap markings similar (S.K.I thru S.K.XXV) in form. These are attributed to the British Zone's West German Police from approx. 1951-1956. Your "S" boat hypothesis may be equally valid.
TIA,
Inspector WR <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

JohnF · 01-11-2003, 11:10 AM

The acceptance stamps on the right side are s/E655 s/E655 s/E/s. I've taken yet another look at the suffix and I'm still lousy at reading script. However, I have finally managed to convince my digital camera to take a half decent photo of the suffix and I'll post it as soon as the upload feature returns. Looking at it again it's probably a Z - which would make more sense based on what's been said.

JohnF · 01-12-2003, 11:54 AM

Here's the photo of the suffix. It is a Z isn't it?
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/42framesuffix.JPG

01-07-2003, 05:16 PM	#1
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Mauser 42 Kriegsmarine Marked Luger I just picked up a very nice Kriegsmarine pistol which has a marking that I can't identify. The pistol is a Mauser 42 P.08 dated 1939 with the following markings: S/N 5666 Right Frame WaA E/655 repeated twice followed by a standard Heer test proof Rear Grip Strap N.3894 Front Grip Strap S XIX Magazine: FXO WaA E/37 - there are two mags both marked the same. The base of the mag is an unusual black bakelite. I've never seen one like this before. It came in a 1939 dated holster marked on the back Karl Akva, Bad Kreuznach, WaA266 and the Kriegsmarine E/M. Does anyone know what the S XIX on the front gripstrap might mean? Here are some pictures - not great as I had to use my scanner. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navywhole.JPG

01-09-2003, 12:00 AM	#16
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	John & Frank, I have an excellent picture showing a comparasion of the three SE63 marks, but cannot access the Forum picture upload page. When it is again available, I will post it. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

01-07-2003, 05:18 PM	#2
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Right Frame http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navyrightframe.JPG

01-07-2003, 05:19 PM	#3
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Left frame http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyLeftframe.JPG

01-07-2003, 05:21 PM	#4
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Top markings http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyTop.JPG

01-07-2003, 05:23 PM	#5
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I don't think that the magazine is correct for the gun - both mags are identical but have no serial numbers http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Navymagbottom.JPG

01-07-2003, 05:25 PM	#6
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Finally, these are the markings on the back of the holster - the real colour is dark brown. http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/NavyHolster.JPG

01-07-2003, 05:28 PM	#7
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hello John, PICS of those front & backstrap would be appreciated. FXO E/37 mags are associated with the BYF ( 41 & 42 dated ) Mausers. Yours should have the 122 type series of mag ( if I'm not mistaken ) 1939 42 are quite scrace in my area kidvett

01-07-2003, 06:07 PM	#8
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I figured out how to scan the grip strap markings so here they are: http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/FrontGripStrap.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/BackGripStrap.JPG

01-08-2003, 12:20 AM	#9
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	John, I'm no expert in NAVY's but it would indicate that your Mauser was issued to a NORTH SEA unit. U-BOATS??? Dont forget to check your Private Messages... kidvett

01-08-2003, 05:14 AM	#10
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Derek Seltzer very kindly asked some people about the S XIX marking and James Cate came back with the suggestion that this may be an unofficial mark relating to a ship. I'd love it to be a sub but I think that would be a U marking and not an S. In any event, given the efforts of my Dad and others in the Royal Navy, it is highly unlikely that a U Boat issued 1939 Luger would not be at the bottom of the Atlantic. I'm inclined to believe that it is a ship marking and my inclination is that, if so, it may refer to a Schnellboot or S Boat as these operated extensively in the North See. Another suggestion from Bob Burden was that it could be an SD Police marking as districts in Dusseldorf were numbered Roman style.

01-08-2003, 07:04 AM	#11
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hello John, nice Luger!! Kidvette was absolutely correct regarding the fxo magazines. The magazine should a blue folded metal type with an aluminum bottom and not having a center fastening pin. The acceptance mark on the bottom should be a stick eagle-over-63 (SE/63) or a stick eagle-over-655 (SE/655). Also the serial number should contain a script letter. This appears only in one place, on the frame, below the barrel just under the numbers. If this letter is between "P" and "W" the magazine markings should not be SE/655

01-08-2003, 02:45 PM	#12
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks Frank. There is a letter below the serial number on the front. I'm not good at reading script but I looked up a chart and it seems to be an L.

01-08-2003, 06:01 PM	#13
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi again John! "L" was not one of your choices!! The 1939, Code 42 Lugers began life in the late "P" alpha (P-Block) and stopped in the late "Z" alpha (Z-Block). Could it be an "R", lower case, of course? All Military Mauser Luger suffixes are lower case!

01-08-2003, 06:11 PM	#14
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Frank - Thanks for your perseverance. I looked again and it's a T.

01-08-2003, 06:40 PM	#15
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	John, your magazine should have a SE/63 for an acceptance mark. Now comes the fun!! The 1937, Code S/42 was also made in the T-Block. To differentiate, the "SE/63" comes in 3 sizes. The small size is for the 1937 and the medium and large size is for the 1939. Unless one is familiar with these differences, it is difficult to immediately tell by inspection. I'll get some magazines out and make some measurements!

01-09-2003, 08:30 AM	#17
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hugh, thanks, I'll be waiting patiently. Or at least as patiently as I can wait!!!!

01-09-2003, 11:29 PM	#18
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	JohnF/Frank, - While you're waiting, you may want to visit the "other" forum @www.armscenter.com. Running a thread by "Bohemian" under the "Axis Pistols 1933-1945" titled "CZ-27 marked S XIX STAR". Hearing undocumented suggestions this S XIX is Siamese. Seems a stretch to me; but, Never say never!!! JohnF, - Would you verify and confirm this P.08's S/N letter block as "t" again? Trust you're using the Tech Info sheets or equivalent as a cross-reference. Picture of the right side is too grainy for me to read the Slide's acceptance stamps <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> . Are they sE/63, sE/655, sE/swastika or sE/655, s/E655, sE/swastika??? Reason: "t" block would be the earliest example I've run across for a sE/655, sE/655,sE/s acceptance sequence. This sequence started at the "w" block and on for the 1939-42 code gun from data I have. Want to verify whether this is a transition example of WaA Inspectors given normal mfg. progress. The "x" and the "z" suffix mark can sometimes look like a "t" when wear affects the marking. Don't ya just love ID'g Luger suffix letters. Takes a strong glass..magnifier or sometimes otherwise. <img border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" title="" src="graemlins/drink.gif" /> - GENERAL rule of thumb is the mag acceptance will be the same as the first(left most) slide acceptance stamp. Agree with all said to date about fxo mag's coming on too late and sE/63's contemporary to the "t" block(s). - I have not seen this S XIX marking before. I too have no source of documentation either. However, I do observe in Buxton-Vol.3 The P.38 Pistol-Distribution 1945-1990... on Pgs. 41-44 a series of front grip strap markings similar (S.K.I thru S.K.XXV) in form. These are attributed to the British Zone's West German Police from approx. 1951-1956. Your "S" boat hypothesis may be equally valid. TIA, Inspector WR <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

01-11-2003, 11:10 AM	#19
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The acceptance stamps on the right side are s/E655 s/E655 s/E/s. I've taken yet another look at the suffix and I'm still lousy at reading script. However, I have finally managed to convince my digital camera to take a half decent photo of the suffix and I'll post it as soon as the upload feature returns. Looking at it again it's probably a Z - which would make more sense based on what's been said.

01-12-2003, 11:54 AM	#20
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here's the photo of the suffix. It is a Z isn't it? http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/42framesuffix.JPG