Why Close a Civilized Discussion?

Imperial Arms · 03-05-2004, 11:43 AM

I find it unusual and unnecessary that a civilized discussion which was occurring in another section regarding a Luger Carbine with a silencer/supressor extension was closed by Ed Tinker:

"Yes and although Randy's gun he sold, was discussed at length, his comments were fair, and very well thought out.

This was an excellent discussion, I am closing it, only because I believe all have stated their beliefs as fully as will be allowed."

It appears that some discussions tend to favour certain collectors and dealers in the forum when the actual subject in discussion was concerning a special barrel and not whether the Luger carbine was fake or original. Therefore, I see no reason to close a discussion unless something or someone gets out of hand. If for example, a person makes an inappropriate comment or viciously stains another person's reputation, then the post can be deleted instead of totally closed. I personally believe that a discussion on any Luger can be dicussed on all levels of fairness if conducted in a proper manner. Otherwise, what is the point of sharing opinions on this forum in order to expand knowledge?

Ed, this is not a reproach or offense to you, but just a normal expression of my views. In any discussion, there will be disagreements or different opinions, and usually an open debate can shed some light on unknown facts.

Cheers,
Albert

John Sabato · 03-05-2004, 11:56 AM

Albert, I believe that your post has merit, but I will leave it up to Ed about reopening that thread. I really wasn't following it...

Edward Tinker · 03-05-2004, 02:38 PM

Albert, I may be wrong in my assumption and take offense to this quote:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />It appears that some discussions tend to favour certain collectors and dealers in the forum when the actual subject in discussion was concerning a special barrel and not whether the Luger carbine was fake or original.<hr /></blockquote>Reading Randy's remarks, I felt he was getting frustrated and he felt that the finger was pointed directly at him.

That is fine if you want to take this off line, but publically telling anyone and pointing fingers, I find non-productive {and I feel you did not mean it in that regard}, but I felt that others would not take it that way.

If Randy e-mails me and tells me he wants me to re-open the thread I will, but Randy stated <blockquote>quote:<hr />To All,

Final post from me on this subject.<hr /></blockquote>And in this regard, I felt that a member (NOT A SPECIFIC DEALER) was being targetted.

Ed

Imperial Arms · 03-05-2004, 04:49 PM

Hello Ed,

No offense was intended to anyone, but if you felt that Randy was getting frustrated about this civilized discussion/debate, then it goes to show that people's mood and reaction in the future will prevent interesting and constructive discussions - that would be a shame.

I do not believe that I was 'finger-pointing' at Randy during the discussion, and at no time did I first introduce a person's name as a source of information or reference. I would like to hear your side how a finger was possibly pointed at Randy and what could have been the underlying message or intent.

If Randy wanted to put an end to the discussion, it does not mean that others members should be denied the opportunity to provide their views or opinions. I believe that collectors can learn from exchanging their views/opinions, and it is my opinion that the DWM factory unlikely constructed a Luger carbine barrel for a suppressor - it is only MY opinion and I shall not 'get bent out of shape' if someone else agrees or disagrees with me. On the other hand, if there happens to be an economic connection to a gun, then it is the decision of the buyer to determine if he wishes to accept the actual description/story behind the gun given by the seller.

At the end of the day, it is knowledge which is the most important result as well as the logical theories which can developed from intensive research, but some theories carry more weight than others.

Regards,
Albert

John Sabato · 03-05-2004, 05:14 PM

Gentlemen, (and Ladies if there are any following this discussion),

Allow me to comment on this and the previous discussion. It has been my experience that where no facts can be proven beyond a doubt, that often speculation and theories by the learned men and women that are part of this forum become the catalyst that prompts research that frequently (but not always) results in provenance... Which is our united goal, to discover what we don't know about Lugers.

That is the healthy part of our intellectual discussions on the history of our favorite pistol and it's variants... and it is the reason I am part of this group.

My job (as admin), and the job of our moderators is to monitor those discussions and watch for signs that emotions are getting the best of the participants and then try and prevent chaos or disorder... Believe me, this is NOT an exact science... Printed (or in this case displayed) words often do not convey the real tone of the message that they represent and it is easy to misinterpret the "tone" of the message and feel like feathers are getting ruffled over a disagreement of opinion.

As all of the admin and moderator staff here are volunteers and are not compensated for their services (other than the knowledge that they obtain by reading the wisdom and learned experiences of others), I find that it probably pays more dividends in forum tranquility and productivity to err on the side of good sense, than to stand back and let a discussion get out of hand, to a point where egos and emotions begin to rule...

I value the friendship of each and every one of you. We are all brothers in the fraternity of Lugers, and only seek the truth for the betterment of all. Sometimes, we will never know the truth... when that is true, then the best guesses can often be conflicting in their views.

All that said, I want to thank Ed Tinker for putting a lid on an active discussion that even now after reading back through it, appears to have been moving toward being adverserial rather than productive.

I request that all particpants take a long breath... take a break and read back through the discussion tomorrow... I have the greatest respect for the collective wisdom of both Albert and Randy who have spent years in this area of collecting... We have some facts and some speculation that can arrive at more than one conclusion and we need not convince one another of the validity of our choice... although doing so is mighty satisfying to one's ego.

I submit that we can continue this discussion in our usual tactful and mannerful ways so that no feathers get ruffled and no relevant facts get ignored. Our opinions may never change, but at least we have a choice...

God bless you all... have a great weekend, and see you back here next week.

Nick Davis · 03-05-2004, 11:25 PM

John ,
Well said.

03-05-2004, 11:43 AM	#1
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Why Close a Civilized Discussion? I find it unusual and unnecessary that a civilized discussion which was occurring in another section regarding a Luger Carbine with a silencer/supressor extension was closed by Ed Tinker: "Yes and although Randy's gun he sold, was discussed at length, his comments were fair, and very well thought out. This was an excellent discussion, I am closing it, only because I believe all have stated their beliefs as fully as will be allowed." It appears that some discussions tend to favour certain collectors and dealers in the forum when the actual subject in discussion was concerning a special barrel and not whether the Luger carbine was fake or original. Therefore, I see no reason to close a discussion unless something or someone gets out of hand. If for example, a person makes an inappropriate comment or viciously stains another person's reputation, then the post can be deleted instead of totally closed. I personally believe that a discussion on any Luger can be dicussed on all levels of fairness if conducted in a proper manner. Otherwise, what is the point of sharing opinions on this forum in order to expand knowledge? Ed, this is not a reproach or offense to you, but just a normal expression of my views. In any discussion, there will be disagreements or different opinions, and usually an open debate can shed some light on unknown facts. Cheers, Albert

03-05-2004, 11:56 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Albert, I believe that your post has merit, but I will leave it up to Ed about reopening that thread. I really wasn't following it... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-05-2004, 02:38 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Albert, I may be wrong in my assumption and take offense to this quote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">It appears that some discussions tend to favour certain collectors and dealers in the forum when the actual subject in discussion was concerning a special barrel and not whether the Luger carbine was fake or original.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Reading Randy's remarks, I felt he was getting frustrated and he felt that the finger was pointed directly at him. That is fine if you want to take this off line, but publically telling anyone and pointing fingers, I find non-productive {and I feel you did not mean it in that regard}, but I felt that others would not take it that way. If Randy e-mails me and tells me he wants me to re-open the thread I will, but Randy stated </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">To All, Final post from me on this subject.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">And in this regard, I felt that a member (NOT A SPECIFIC DEALER) was being targetted. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-05-2004, 05:14 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Gentlemen, (and Ladies if there are any following this discussion), Allow me to comment on this and the previous discussion. It has been my experience that where no facts can be proven beyond a doubt, that often speculation and theories by the learned men and women that are part of this forum become the catalyst that prompts research that frequently (but not always) results in provenance... Which is our united goal, to discover what we don't know about Lugers. That is the healthy part of our intellectual discussions on the history of our favorite pistol and it's variants... and it is the reason I am part of this group. My job (as admin), and the job of our moderators is to monitor those discussions and watch for signs that emotions are getting the best of the participants and then try and prevent chaos or disorder... Believe me, this is NOT an exact science... Printed (or in this case displayed) words often do not convey the real tone of the message that they represent and it is easy to misinterpret the "tone" of the message and feel like feathers are getting ruffled over a disagreement of opinion. As all of the admin and moderator staff here are volunteers and are not compensated for their services (other than the knowledge that they obtain by reading the wisdom and learned experiences of others), I find that it probably pays more dividends in forum tranquility and productivity to err on the side of good sense, than to stand back and let a discussion get out of hand, to a point where egos and emotions begin to rule... I value the friendship of each and every one of you. We are all brothers in the fraternity of Lugers, and only seek the truth for the betterment of all. Sometimes, we will never know the truth... when that is true, then the best guesses can often be conflicting in their views. All that said, I want to thank Ed Tinker for putting a lid on an active discussion that even now after reading back through it, appears to have been moving toward being adverserial rather than productive. I request that all particpants take a long breath... take a break and read back through the discussion tomorrow... I have the greatest respect for the collective wisdom of both Albert and Randy who have spent years in this area of collecting... We have some facts and some speculation that can arrive at more than one conclusion and we need not convince one another of the validity of our choice... although doing so is mighty satisfying to one's ego. I submit that we can continue this discussion in our usual tactful and mannerful ways so that no feathers get ruffled and no relevant facts get ignored. Our opinions may never change, but at least we have a choice... God bless you all... have a great weekend, and see you back here next week. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-05-2004, 04:49 PM	#4
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Ed, No offense was intended to anyone, but if you felt that Randy was getting frustrated about this civilized discussion/debate, then it goes to show that people's mood and reaction in the future will prevent interesting and constructive discussions - that would be a shame. I do not believe that I was 'finger-pointing' at Randy during the discussion, and at no time did I first introduce a person's name as a source of information or reference. I would like to hear your side how a finger was possibly pointed at Randy and what could have been the underlying message or intent. If Randy wanted to put an end to the discussion, it does not mean that others members should be denied the opportunity to provide their views or opinions. I believe that collectors can learn from exchanging their views/opinions, and it is my opinion that the DWM factory unlikely constructed a Luger carbine barrel for a suppressor - it is only MY opinion and I shall not 'get bent out of shape' if someone else agrees or disagrees with me. On the other hand, if there happens to be an economic connection to a gun, then it is the decision of the buyer to determine if he wishes to accept the actual description/story behind the gun given by the seller. At the end of the day, it is knowledge which is the most important result as well as the logical theories which can developed from intensive research, but some theories carry more weight than others. Regards, Albert

03-05-2004, 11:25 PM	#6
Nick Davis User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Layton, Utah Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John , Well said.