1914 erfurt arty w/ finetuned front and back

[lugar05]

Hi All,
I have the oppertunity to purchase a 1914 erfurt artillary with fine tuned
front and back sights there are markings on the front grip strap an anchor
below that three #,s is 2500.00 too much for this lugar
thanks in advance
Nick

[Ron Smith]

Hi Nick,

It all depends on condition and authentication of the grip markings. We need photos of all angles and markings also.

Welcome to the forum...

Ron

[John Sabato]

Ron is correct... without photos a guess at value is just a shot in the dark. A REALLY NICE artillery rig was just auctioned for nearly 10 grand... in the same vein, it would not be unusual to find just an artillery shooter for about 1000.00...

We have to see it to make an educated guess.

Welcome to the Lugerforum.

[lugar05]

Ron and John
thank you the gun is from the late Harry McTeague,s collection the serial #7802 the grip strap markings anchor M 715 the side plate has an L with a crown over it the gun is about 80% the seller is on his way to Boise for the show up there but he promised that i could take photos monday or tuesday when he returns

[Edward Tinker]

Welcome to the forum Nick.


An old sage always said, buy books then guns. Price might be good, and it might be high, I ahve seen some extremly nice guns come out of famous collections, I have also seen ones that weren't wonderful, you never know why the collector picked something up or when.

The inovator of the luger was Georg Luger, notice I said inovator, he improved on a previous design. In america it is known as a luger while in many parts of europe it is known as the P08.


Ed

[Big Norm]

Hi Nick. Ed is right. The army military Luger with a 4 inch barrel is often referred to as a P-08 which is short for Parabellum 1908. That means that the German army adopted the 4 inch barreled pistol in 1908 as its official side arm. Parabellum means 'Made for War'.

Then the army also adopted the 8 inch barreled artillery Luger and called it LP-08 for Lange Parabellum or Long Parabellum. The royal arsenal in Erfurt, Germany was scheduled to manufacture some and the commercial arsenal in Ordendorff, Germany (DWM) was also supposed to produce some. But war broke out in August, 1914 and the royal arsenal in Erfurt needed to produce more rifles. So all remaining production of LP-08's was transferred to DWM. With the exception of 1915, Erfurt continued to produce P-08's and DWM produced P-08's as well as all LP-08's until the end of the war.

The exception to the P-08 and LP-08 there was the P-04. That means Parabellum 1904. This designation was given to the navy military 6 inch barreled pistol because the German navy adopted that pistol in 1904 as its official side arm. DWM made all of these pistols. In addition to being called the navy or P-04, the WW1 pistols are also referred to as the model 1914 even though there is some debate as to whether or not there was any WAR TIME production outside of the contract years of 1916 and 1917. There were PRE WAR production of the P-04 for the German navy in 1906 (collectors say that there are three versions produced for that contract year). There was also the PRE WAR production in 1908. All these pistols are called P-04's even though collectors identify them as different versions of the navy model. There is also the very rare 1904 version.

People who collect all sorts of guns in addition to the Lugers would like to have the Erfurt LP-08 and one of the five different chamber dated WW1 DWM LP-08's plus the two pre WW2 LP-08's (the Persian and the Siamese LP-08's). Collectors of Lugers only, such as myself, want all eight of the LP-08's. So you see, supply and demand predicts that there will be more demand from gun collectors for the Erfurt LP-08 because it was only produced in one year. Many of those were destroyed due to war as well as for many other reasons afterwards.

So, if your LP-08 is truly an Erfurt artillery Luger then people would want to make sure that it is a real Erfurt artillery and not a counterfeit pistol. Many good pictures is a requirement before a price estimate can be made. I emphasize 'Many Good Pictures'. Look at a below posting of a recent sale on GunBroker as an example of what I mean by 'many good pictures'. A wise man on this forum more than once said that the tuition at Luger University can be very expensive. He wasn't kidding.
Big Norm

[whcoyote]

[In addition to being called the navy or P-04, the WW1 pistols are also referred to as the model 1914 even though there is some debate as to whether or not there was any WAR TIME production outside of the contract years of 1916 and 1917.]

Hi Norm:
Ref. your comment above - if I have understood you correctly - I think the Model 1904 Navy was a significantly different pistol than the Model 1914. They only made about 150 of the Model 1904. There were about 23,000 Model 1914s made (dated 1916 and 1917). If I have misunderstood you, my apologies, please.
Bob G.

[Ron Wood]

Off of the top of my head, since I am away from home and my references, I am going to take a stab at the nomenclature being used here. Although the â??Lugerâ?� is known in Europe as the â??Parabellumâ?� (from the DWM Berlin telegraph address, and taken from the Latin expression â??Si vis pacem, parabellumâ?�â?¦â?�If you would have peace, [prepare] for warâ?�) the German military designation is derived from the year the Luger was officially adopted for use. Therefore, the Navy standardized the Luger in 1904 and it was designated â??Pistole 04â?? or abbreviated P-04. Likewise, the acceptance by the German Army of the Luger in 1908 resulted in the designation of â??Pistole 08â?? or P-08. In 1914 when the â??Artilleryâ?� Luger was adopted it was, as far as the German Army was concerned, just a long barreled P-08 i.e. â??Lange Pistol 08â?? or LP-08. So for the German military regardless of the year they were manufactured, all Navy Lugers are P-04 and all Army Lugers are P-08/LP-08. It is the collector community that came up with the model sub-variations depending on year that physical and/or mechanical changes were made in manufacturing.

Now letâ??s break down the popular collector terminology for the Navy Luger. The very early P-04s have been assigned the collector designation of â??Model 1903/04â??. The elimination of the toggle lock and the introduction of the coil mainspring and improved breechblock in 1906 give rise to the collector designation of â??Model 1906 Navyâ?? (not content with just a 1906 model designation, collectors further break this model down into â??First Issueâ??, â??First Issue Alteredâ??, and â??Second Issueâ?�). In 1908, the grip safety was given the heave-ho and now we have the â??Model 1908 Navyâ??. Then in 1914 they started adding a chamber date, ergo the collector designation of â??Model 1914 Navyâ??. Bear in mind, all of these Navy Lugers are still â??P-04â?� in military terms.

OK, letâ??s look at the Army side. As we already indicated, the Army started out with the Luger in 1908. These first 4â?� barreled Army Lugers eliminated the hold-open device, the grip safety, and the stock lug found on the Navy Lugers. Collectors consider this to be the â??1908 Armyâ?? or â??1908 Militaryâ??. This model started out without a chamber date and the very first group had the proof/acceptance marks on the left side of the receiver, so collectors dubbed this version as the â??1908 First Issueâ?? model. Then in 1910 Erfurt started gearing up to produce the Luger so naturally the military decided that a date needed to be added and lo and behold the collector designation of â??1908 Datedâ?? was created. The Army realized that some of the features that they threw out as unnecessary or cost cutting werenâ??t such a good ideas so in 1913 they started revamping earlier pieces to add the hold-open back in and continue all subsequent manufacture to incorporate this feature. Somehow collectors didnâ??t feel it was necessary to give this change its own variation name. But in late 1913 the stock lug was reborn. Collectors werenâ??t too swift on the uptake in recognizing when this change occurred, so they dubbed this version the â??Model 1914â?? and that is what it has been ever since. But once again, from the military standpoint all of these are still P-08s

[Big Norm]

whcoyote,
a little further correction by me is necessary. All WW1 and earlier navies are called P-04's. But you will frequently hear collectors call the chamber dated 1916 and the 1917 navies as MODEL 1914 navies (note, the word MODEL here and elsewhere). In reality, both chamber dated navies are the same. But the one with the 1916 chamber date is a little harder to find.

A big bugaboo that I have with many people selling artilleries is that some people often refer to all of them as 1914 artilleries. Real collectors will refer to a specific artillery by its chamber date. The chamber dated 1914 DWM LP-08 is a difficult one to find.

The model 1904 is different from all the other model P-04's. Very few were manufactured because it was mainly used as a training tool by the German navy. When the model 1906 came out, many of the model 1904's were converted to the model 1906. Very few of the original model 1904's exist. (Like maybe two) Ron is right when he talked about the conversion of the model 1904 to the model 1906. But one thing that he missed in his fine write-up was that the barrel of the model 1904 was like a pencil in that it was not tapered like all remaining P-04's produced were.

Then there are what I call transition years for all P-08's, LP-08's and P-04's. Rons mention of what he called the model 1914 P-08 would be called a model 1913 P-08 transition year by me. That is because the changes that Ron mentioned occurred sometime during 1913. So there is an early and a late model 1913 P-08 with many of the early 1913's having the hold open added sometime in their lives on some of them.

The transition year for the P-04 would be the non-chamber dated model 1908. During that model there was a conversion from what is called a long frame to the short frame on the commercial P-04's but not the military/navy model 1908's. The change was the elimination of the grip safety and a slight change in the breech block to accommodate the slight change in the frame. The chamber date was added in the model 1914 P-04 of chamber dated years 1916 and 1917.

The transition year for the LP-08 artillery was 1917. During that chamber dated year, the front and rear adjustable sight screws were removed. Inventory of the front and rear sights where used up so some 1917 LP-08's might have an either/or situation with these sights. There was a slight change in the rear sight of the model 1918 LP-08.

Geez, I hope that Jan Still doesn't get mad at me for writing this book.
Big Norm

[Ron Wood]

"When the model 1906 came out, many of the model 1904's were converted to the model 1906."

You lost me there Norm. Also, I am not sure what you are referring to as the "slight change in the breech block to accommodate the slight change in the frame".

[tenbears]

Any Naval marked Luger particuarly a Erfurt artillery is desireable. Just like everybody has said need to see good picks to determine exactly what you have. Probably a double date on the chamber 1914/1920.

[Lugerdoc]

Except for Ron Wood's comments, there is a lot of misinformation in the above. TH

[Edward Tinker]

Well, I guess this thread is a quigmire, I am not sure what is what and what means what.


In otherwords, as Tom A says, WT*?????

[Navy]

My stars and garters! After reading through all of this, the wisdom of my grandfather beckons,"It ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble, its what you do know that's wrong!".

Unfortunately, I lack the time (and the inclination), to straighten this out, but for now, stick with what the scholarly and, dare I say, debonaire Mr Wood has posted.

And, should anyone desire to see what the '03/'04 guns look like, pls refer to my avatar and the pix of mine that are posted in the member gallery.

Tom A