Navies

A few of us were taken to task by a gentleman because we wanted to build a few Navies. Our integerty was challenged and I have posted my answer to that in the location we were dicussing the building of Navy sights.

I hope that there are those of you that appreciate the fact there still are some creditable gunsmiths around that enjoy taking pride in their craft and especilly working with the Luger.

Neil

Check it out!

[Thor]

I have also posted my response, basically we can accomplish two things with this project. 1. Help preserve the few Original Navies that are out there. 2. Provide Navy Shooters for those of us that cant afford the originals. I do appreciate those that are doing excellent work with the Luger pistol. GT, Hugh, Tom Heller, Art, Dok, Jerry Burney just to name a few and now Neil. I enjoy this company of skilled people! We arent out to rip anybody off, just enjoy the Luger and our talents. Thor



Ted's Luger Strawing Service

[Roadkill]

Do what you want to do. You are not a crook, do not intend to defraud,it is not illegal, and if you have the skills to make something you want then do it and those who don't like it be d***ed.


Roadkill

[Big Norm]

I have read the posts of both Neil and Thor and I still consider you two as cheap knock off artists. Thor, you got guts trying to sneak your name in with Hugh, Jerry, Dok and others who have not taken a stand on this issue at all. If anything, you should be associating your name with Harvey Branch who is now in jail FOR OTHER GUN RELATED REASONS (emphasis added). Since you are a member of NAPCA I am sure you know who he is and what the members of NAPCA think of him and cottage industry fakers.


Your continuous Left Wing Extremist carping about about how much money OTHER people have is tiring me. Perhaps if you realized that there is a close relationship between hard work, luck and money you would not have lost your other job and you would be able to buy a real navy Luger or K date. Sure they are expensive. But I worked hard to afford and find the ones that I have. I resent your suggestion that I and others did something wrong while earning that money and that we didn't do considerable shopping to find those Lugers.


Your constant jabbering about the talents of skilled gunsmiths is transparent. I have not questioned the ability of either you or Neil. The question has been about integrity and the direction of that integrity. What you are suggesting we do is forgive a murderer because he is a good shot. That bag of wind don't fly.


And, finally Brandon, thanks. I believe that you got the point that I am trying to make. But another thing that bothers me is that two board members, whose opinions I truely respected, seemed to be all in favor of this act of counterfeiting cheap navy Luger knock offs. That hurt. You are right, cheats already have done their damage and there isn't much that can be done about them. That hurts too. The only thing that I think can be done is to have the courage to stand up to these creeps and make it clear what we think of them and their easy money objectives. They are not interested in helping poor people buy cheap navy Lugers as Ted says. Follow the dollar. It won't stop them but it will let other people know who they are and let Luger people decide for themselves whether or not to do business with them. Exposure is the only real enemy of these kind of people. It worked with Arthur Anderson at Enron.

Big Norm

[Thor]

Thanks Big Norm for that big vote of confidence. As a Christian I have an immense capacity to forgive, I have never defrauded anyone and dont plan to. I certainly appreciate being accused of something I havent done.

I will continue to place my mark on my guns in hope that it will prevent this from happening. Sorry we dont see eye to eye on this. Have a good day! Thor



Ted's Luger Strawing Service

Well said Thor. You are a gentleman and I am proud to call you my friend. Keep up the faith.

Sid.

[Dok]

I can't speak to Neil as I dont know him, but I certainly can attest for the likes of Ted Green. I cannot think of a more honest individual than Ted. Indeed I modelled my own style of dealings as a craftsman after Ted. It is I who am honoured to be ranked with the likes of Ted Green, not the other way around.


On the issue of making Navies, there are scores of people out there making "reproduction" pistols, I even own one, I'm not confused that it's an original, nor would anyone else be. I certainly would stand in line to buy a reproduction Navy, and I don't consider Ted or Neil or John Martz or Mike Krauss or Hugh Clark counterfieters either.


I think you words were over the top, and an apology would certainly be in order. No one has treated you in this manner on this board, and this scathing attack is not only unwarrented, but definitely out of order. I am personally saddened.


Dok

[Luke]

Big Norm,


While I am painfully aware of the marketplace presence of fake Navy Lugers, having bought and returned two this year, I strongly feel that an attack on the integrity of Ted Green is a mistake. I think we all share your frustrations with the counterfeiters in this business.


Having said that, I don't believe that Neil, Ted and others on this Forum ever considered manufacturing fake Navy Lugers for sale as rare collectables.


While I am not acquainted with Neil, I know Ted to be an honest, Christian man; and I feel your comments are not well placed.


I do respect your concerns, and a statement of those is correct and proper; but a personal attack goes too far . . . . just my opinon.


Hope all this settles well and we all remain friends.

[Bernard]

Dok, I second your motion. An apology is in order. Rather than doing wrong, Ted is doing right!

I just thought I'd ask I was in no way saying They were counterfeiters!!! I just don't think it would be right to make them without a special marking somewhere saying they are not original Navys. I also agree with Thor this project would cut down on original Luger damage cause people will shoot these instead of their originals!


Brandon

[Marvin]

I have just been able to get on the Forum for a couple of minutes this afternoon and wanted to add that what you had to say Dok fits my feelings exactly. I saw the original posting this morning but did not have time to respond. I feel it was totally uncalled for myself!


There is no one on this Forum that I am aware that has ever, or would ever try to "fake" up a part or pistol. In my opinion, some replacement parts are required and maybe the Naval sight is one of those that are needed.


Anyone that is going to invest in the high dollar Lugers should read, study, look, get a Mentor on naval Lugers, and LEARN what is a fake and what is not a fake! Deal only with reputable dealers when buying these high dollar pistols!


I may be able to afford these high dollar Lugers, but I enjoy the regular type Lugers much more than the rare ones. There is more info available to read about them, more people to discuss them with, and finally it sounds like you don't trust anyone you buy from.


Marvin



P.38 Forum

[RET]

Big Norm,


I can understand your concern regarding counterfeiting, but your concerns do not justify or excuse your postings.


The statements and accusations made by you are not supported by postings at this site or anything that I have ever heard. Further, they are insulting, constitute personal attacks, and are altogether inappropriate. I have not seen or heard anything that would support any of your contentions regarding fraud, other unlawful practices, or even unethical behavior.


On the other hand, some of what you have posted is certainly defamatory and could be interpreted as libel, regardless if it was only intended to be an expression of your opinion.


Bob

[bill m]

Hi,

Norm was concerned enough about this subject to state his opinion. He told it like he felt it was. -- Come on guys, you and Norm both know that if the rear navy sight is reproduced exactly, it will be used to make up navy Lugers and it will not be used just on shooters. -- Perhaps not by Ted or Neil, but others will. -- The bottom line about fakes and counterfieting comes down to this, plain and simple: If you're not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. -- This sight can be a good product or it can be "part of the problem", but it is up to you to determine which it is going to be. Norm's concerns are justified in my opinon, as I have not heard any suggestions from the producers to suggest this is not going to be "part of the problem"! Go ahead and make the sight, but change it, or mark it boldly, but do something so you aren't adding to the problem. Just my opinon-- Bill Munis

[Thor]

I think after all the fireworks have died down for the moment, it may be realized that these sights wont be worth the money required to make them. Fakers might be willing to pay many $$$ but the average fellow that just wants a shooter may not. Why havent they been mass produced yet? Too expensive I would bet. There are certainly many places that could make them, heck they did it way back in 04. My guess simple economics will keep the status quo. Thor



Ted's Luger Strawing Service

[bill m]

Hi Ted,

I think you are exactly right -- they are very time consuming to make and very expensive. The one I saw on the fake 1916 was made and exactly like an original, but was still in the white on the underside in places where they had to make it fit. -- Once you had a pattern though and could really turn them out, I suppose the price would drop as production increased. -- It is a good idea, but please do not make them exactly the same or mark them in such a way so anyone can tell the difference. Good Luck! -- bill m