1908 Navy - need some advice

Brent B. · 10-18-2004, 01:26 PM

I have come by a 1908 DWM Navy Luger, s/n 3509b. I am going by Lugers At Random, pages 154 & 155. It has no date on the receiver, a "100" behind the DWM logo, and all the numbers including the grips and proofs are like those in the book. There's a unit marking of W.K. 10506 on the back strap, stock lug and regular safety. The straw is pretty much gone and the finish varies from almost gone to pretty decent with one area beside the side plate that almost has a blueish tint to it. Does anyone have any thoughts on what it could be worth if it's original with some possible blueing done on it? I told the owner I'd get back with him tomorrow morning with an answer.

Navy · 10-18-2004, 01:59 PM

Hi Brent,

In the condition you cite, the gun is worth between $1200-1500. It has no collector value due to condition, but might be a restoration candidate.

Tom A.

Brent B. · 10-18-2004, 02:11 PM

Tom A.: Thank you for such a quick reply. The Luger is being offered to me for less and it's the first one I've seen in my area in the 3 years I've been collecting. Brent

Big Norm · 10-19-2004, 05:19 AM

Brent,
I'd be cautious about re-bluing of an original 1908. Once its been re-blued then the value that TomA noted will hold. But if your 1908 has no pitting and has just some worn off bluing and straw, then your gun is worth more than TomA stated. Original rear toggles for the navy alone go for $400-600. So it sounds like you have a real bargain in the making. This is a judgement call since I have not seen your gun. My humble opinion would be to jump on the gun but do not try to pretty it up by re-bluing it. But if you do decide to re-blue your gun, make sure that you get someone good and not just some hacker. If too much metal has been removed through restoration or if the restrawing has been butchered by a amateur, your gun will be worth less than even TomA's low estimate. You can't give away badly restored Lugers. They become parts guns.

Incidently, the "100" that you noted that is behind the DWM is part of an adjustible rear sight on the rear toggle. It stands for 100 meters. A closer look by you would reveal that the sight is adjustible and can be elevated to "200" which stands for 200 meters.

The "W.K. 10506" that you noted on the back strap is not a unit mark. Its a naval dockyard marking that adds value to a navy Luger.

Personally, it has been a long time since I have seen an original (not restored) navy Luger go for less than $2500. Something else would have to be wrong with it for one to go for less. Try to get a friend to look at this gun with you to help you eliminate emotion and to make sure that it is, in fact, an authentic 1908 navy. The price that you mentioned sends up warning signals with me and warrants a closer look.
Big Norm

Brent B. · 10-19-2004, 05:59 AM

Big Norm: Thanks for the info. I was thinking about the Navy last night and pulled out a 1908 DWM first issue and was comparing them. The color of the finish on both seems to be the same except for the one area beside the side plate on the Navy which has the blueish tint and there are a couple of areas where the finish looks "thin" as if the metal color is starting to wear thru. One other thing, the inside of the lower receiver is darker then the 1908 first issue which makes me wonder if the Navy wasn't redone a long time ago. I've been collecting Imperial Luger for about 3 years and will be the first to admit that there's a lot I don't know about them but when it comes to Navy Lugers I don't know anything. I did figure out the "100" when I was messing with the rear sight and it extended to show the "200" which was still a bright metal color with some oil on it.

I really appreciate the help I've been given here on Luger Forum and from a couple of other friends I've made over the years via e-mails.

Brent

Big Norm · 10-20-2004, 01:38 AM

Brent,
I don't know what you mean by a 1908 first issue. You may be confusing a 1908 with a 1906 navy. The 1908 navy only had a commercial and a military. The 1906 had a first issue, a first issue altered, a second issue and a commercial.
Your navy may have not been reblued entirely. It may have only been spot touched up. I'd really have to see the gun to tell. Its really is more important to look at the markings, the edges on the rails and so forth to see in there has been any metal removal.
Some restorers are artists at restoring Lugers. These guys remove only minute amounts of metal. Then there are other guys who should be shot for messing up a good gun.
The very first thing that I look at when I examine a Luger for restoration is the Locking Bolt. Its a small, irregular shaped part that is difficult for an amatuer to keep the flat flat and the edges champhered. Then I look for evidence of a buffing wheel (rounded edges on serial numbers and proof marks and so forth). Then I look at the bore. Does the wear on the bore match the wear on the rest of the gun? A minty, bright bore on the well used gun may indicate a rebarreling. Look at the size of the lettering of the serial numbers. Of course you should always make sure that the number do in fact match. The is a small thing that sometimes is forgotten. There is a lot to learn in checking out an expensive Luger. Mistakes can be costly. Fortuately, it sounds like you paid an excellent price for your gun.
Big Norm

Ron Wood · 10-20-2004, 09:34 AM

Norm,
I think Brent is referring to a 1908 first issue army Luger. Your advice is right on target though.

Brent B. · 10-24-2004, 08:56 AM

Big Norm & Ron: Sorry I've been away from Luger Forum for a few days due to a busy work schedule. I rechecked Lugers At Random and it's a 1908 Navy as described on pages 154 & 155. I don't know where I came up with the fist issue, maybe it's because this is the first Navy model I've ever seen other then in photos. The markings are as in the photo and the 4 digit s/n ends with "b" and there's the W.K. 10506 on the rear grip strap so I am assuming this is a military and not commercial Navy. I've only been collecting for about 3 years and there's so much to learn.

One question, is a Navy one that you wouldn't want to take to the range?

Thanks, Brent

10-18-2004, 01:26 PM	#1
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1908 Navy - need some advice I have come by a 1908 DWM Navy Luger, s/n 3509b. I am going by Lugers At Random, pages 154 & 155. It has no date on the receiver, a "100" behind the DWM logo, and all the numbers including the grips and proofs are like those in the book. There's a unit marking of W.K. 10506 on the back strap, stock lug and regular safety. The straw is pretty much gone and the finish varies from almost gone to pretty decent with one area beside the side plate that almost has a blueish tint to it. Does anyone have any thoughts on what it could be worth if it's original with some possible blueing done on it? I told the owner I'd get back with him tomorrow morning with an answer.

10-20-2004, 09:34 AM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,005 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,689 Posts	Norm, I think Brent is referring to a 1908 first issue army Luger. Your advice is right on target though. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-18-2004, 01:59 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Brent, In the condition you cite, the gun is worth between $1200-1500. It has no collector value due to condition, but might be a restoration candidate. Tom A.

10-18-2004, 02:11 PM	#3
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tom A.: Thank you for such a quick reply. The Luger is being offered to me for less and it's the first one I've seen in my area in the 3 years I've been collecting. Brent

10-19-2004, 05:19 AM	#4
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Brent, I'd be cautious about re-bluing of an original 1908. Once its been re-blued then the value that TomA noted will hold. But if your 1908 has no pitting and has just some worn off bluing and straw, then your gun is worth more than TomA stated. Original rear toggles for the navy alone go for $400-600. So it sounds like you have a real bargain in the making. This is a judgement call since I have not seen your gun. My humble opinion would be to jump on the gun but do not try to pretty it up by re-bluing it. But if you do decide to re-blue your gun, make sure that you get someone good and not just some hacker. If too much metal has been removed through restoration or if the restrawing has been butchered by a amateur, your gun will be worth less than even TomA's low estimate. You can't give away badly restored Lugers. They become parts guns. Incidently, the "100" that you noted that is behind the DWM is part of an adjustible rear sight on the rear toggle. It stands for 100 meters. A closer look by you would reveal that the sight is adjustible and can be elevated to "200" which stands for 200 meters. The "W.K. 10506" that you noted on the back strap is not a unit mark. Its a naval dockyard marking that adds value to a navy Luger. Personally, it has been a long time since I have seen an original (not restored) navy Luger go for less than $2500. Something else would have to be wrong with it for one to go for less. Try to get a friend to look at this gun with you to help you eliminate emotion and to make sure that it is, in fact, an authentic 1908 navy. The price that you mentioned sends up warning signals with me and warrants a closer look. Big Norm

10-19-2004, 05:59 AM	#5
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Big Norm: Thanks for the info. I was thinking about the Navy last night and pulled out a 1908 DWM first issue and was comparing them. The color of the finish on both seems to be the same except for the one area beside the side plate on the Navy which has the blueish tint and there are a couple of areas where the finish looks "thin" as if the metal color is starting to wear thru. One other thing, the inside of the lower receiver is darker then the 1908 first issue which makes me wonder if the Navy wasn't redone a long time ago. I've been collecting Imperial Luger for about 3 years and will be the first to admit that there's a lot I don't know about them but when it comes to Navy Lugers I don't know anything. I did figure out the "100" when I was messing with the rear sight and it extended to show the "200" which was still a bright metal color with some oil on it. I really appreciate the help I've been given here on Luger Forum and from a couple of other friends I've made over the years via e-mails. Brent

10-20-2004, 01:38 AM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Brent, I don't know what you mean by a 1908 first issue. You may be confusing a 1908 with a 1906 navy. The 1908 navy only had a commercial and a military. The 1906 had a first issue, a first issue altered, a second issue and a commercial. Your navy may have not been reblued entirely. It may have only been spot touched up. I'd really have to see the gun to tell. Its really is more important to look at the markings, the edges on the rails and so forth to see in there has been any metal removal. Some restorers are artists at restoring Lugers. These guys remove only minute amounts of metal. Then there are other guys who should be shot for messing up a good gun. The very first thing that I look at when I examine a Luger for restoration is the Locking Bolt. Its a small, irregular shaped part that is difficult for an amatuer to keep the flat flat and the edges champhered. Then I look for evidence of a buffing wheel (rounded edges on serial numbers and proof marks and so forth). Then I look at the bore. Does the wear on the bore match the wear on the rest of the gun? A minty, bright bore on the well used gun may indicate a rebarreling. Look at the size of the lettering of the serial numbers. Of course you should always make sure that the number do in fact match. The is a small thing that sometimes is forgotten. There is a lot to learn in checking out an expensive Luger. Mistakes can be costly. Fortuately, it sounds like you paid an excellent price for your gun. Big Norm

10-24-2004, 08:56 AM	#8
Brent B. User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 176 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Big Norm & Ron: Sorry I've been away from Luger Forum for a few days due to a busy work schedule. I rechecked Lugers At Random and it's a 1908 Navy as described on pages 154 & 155. I don't know where I came up with the fist issue, maybe it's because this is the first Navy model I've ever seen other then in photos. The markings are as in the photo and the 4 digit s/n ends with "b" and there's the W.K. 10506 on the rear grip strap so I am assuming this is a military and not commercial Navy. I've only been collecting for about 3 years and there's so much to learn. One question, is a Navy one that you wouldn't want to take to the range? Thanks, Brent