Help 1913 unit marked

[jayhawkhenry]

Hello all,

I have a 1913 DWM that has a 1920 reissue stamp. It is totally matched, all proofs are correct. The strap is marked, S.G.I.4 (which has been struck through) and then stamped S.Ka.I. 377

I have not been able to find anything that would fit. Any help would be great to ID the unit or organization.

Thanks in advance.
Henry

[Ron Smith]

Hi Henry,

These are Weimar Police units. 1920 is actually a Gov't Property Mark.

S.G.I.4 translates to Schutzpolizei Gumbinnen 1st District weapon #4

S.Ka.I.377 is Schutzpolizei Kassel 1st District weapon #377

Municipal Police Gumbinnen and re-issued to Municipal Police Kassel.

Welcome to the forum.

Ron

[jayhawkhenry]

Thank Ron. So, do you think it was issued to the police in 1920 following military use in WWI?

[Ron Smith]

Henry,

That's exactly what happened.

Ron

[Don M]

Henrry,

Any chance of knowing the serial number and letter suffix of this gun?

[Edward Tinker]

and if it has sear safety or sear and magazine safety?

[jayhawkhenry]

The SSN is 4279. There is no suffix that I can find. It has a sear safety. I am new to Lugers so I do not know how to identify a magazine safety.

I would like to learn more, this is a real prize to me. I always wanted a Luger and pick this one up on eBay a few years ago, back when you could still purchase firearms on that site.

[jayhawkhenry]

Another question, the front & rear straps are coated in what looks like heavy varnish. Should it be removed? I have read about cleaning the grips on this site, should I leave them dark or clean them?

[Don M]

Henry,

Thanks very much for the additional information. Your pistol has a very interesting history and has contributed significantly to my research and eventual book on German police markings. After WWI, the pistol was reissued to the Schutzpolizei (municipal police) of the district of Gumbinnen in the province of East Prussia. In the very early 1920s, there were Schupo garrisons in five cities in the Gumbinnen district but these were reduced to two locations, Insterburg and Tilsit, by the mid-20s. The observed markings from this district are S.G.I and S.G.II which undoubtedly are Insterburg and Tilsit but until I saw your post, I didn't know which was which. Thanks to your information, I now believe that S.G.I was Insterburg for two reasons: (1) the Insterburg Schupo contingent was progressively reduced to a single independent company (Bereitschaft) and a Bereitschaft number would have been unnecessary as in your marking (S.G.I.4.) and (2) transfer of surplus weapons from the downsized Insterburg Schupo is consitent with the cancelation of the S.G. marking and transfer to the Kassel Schupo. This transfer probably occurred in the late 1920s or early 30s. Incidentally, the S.Ka.I marking is from the city of Kassel in the Kassel administrative district.

I hope this fills in some of the history of this pistol. If you have a high-resolution photo of the grip strap marking on this pistol that I could include in my book, I would be very grateful and will, of course, credit you.

P.S. Yours is only the second S.G.I marking in my database of nearly 2000 German police markings and the only one on a Luger. The other is on a Mauser C96.

[jayhawkhenry]

Don,

Thank you for all the information and your kind offer to include my pistol in your book. I would be happy to email you a photo of the markings. Just let me know where to send it.

Henry

[jayhawkhenry]

Don,

I took some photos and have discovered more information for your consideration.
What I did not see and the camera did:
1) the first mark is struck through. The number 4 appears to be stamped over a 3
2) the number 4 is followed by the number 23 (small size for weapon number) which is almost covered by the second stamp.

You will see it in the photos.
Regards,
Henry

[Edward Tinker]

Henry, I love to take close up photos and then blow them up. I see much that my eyes missed



Ed

[Don M]

Henry,

My email address is in my closing below. Please send me you name as you want it to appear in the book.

Your new infromation may alter my interpretation.

[Don M]

After reviewing Henry's photos, I must change my interpretation of the markings. The pistol was never issued to the Gumbinnen district. With his permission, here is a photo of the marking:


The two readable markings are both from the city of Kassel in the Kassel administrative district. There was an original marking that included a "3" that may also have been from Kassel.

The first readable mark is S.C.I.4.23. and conforms to the 1922 Schupo marking instructions. It is an early 1920s marking from the time the city's name was Cassel (prior to 1926). The pistol was weapon number 23 of Bereitschaft 4.

The second marking is S.Ka.I.377. , conforming to the 1932 marking instructions and the revised spelling of Kassel.

The photo below shows that there is no sear safety on the pistol. This, as well as the format of the first marking indicates the gun belonged to the barracked Bereitschaftspolizei that was transferred to the military in 1933-34, before the pistol received this device.



While a very nice Luger with interesting police markings, it is not as unique as I thought and does not clear up the uncertainty in Gumbinnen markings.

[jayhawkhenry]

Don,
Thank you for your efforts, I am sorry the pistol was not what you had hoped. I have a great deal more to learn about the Luger pistol and will be spending time on this forum learning from collectors and historians like yourself.
I now have a bit of history to go with my prize.
Again, thank you.
Henry