Help with Luger markings.

[Adam]

I am new to the forums and I just wanted to say "Hello". I am 25 and I have been interested in Lugers for as long as I can remember. I live in Tennessee and have only seen one Luger (in person) in my life. It was at a gun show at the Appalachia fairgrounds. It was in rough shape with little blue, no straw, a mag with busted wooden bottom, broken walnut grips, a 30cal. barrel (shot out and removed), and had a replacement 9mm barrel. The guy wanted $450 for it. I talked him down to $400 and bought it. I didnt know at the time if it was worth the money, but it was the first and only one I have came across. Turns out it was in great working condition, I put in a wolf spring kit (Thanks to Thor for the main spring tutorial) and 6 inch 9mm barrel. I tried a few different grip types (including a pearl set) and settled on a pair of cheap walnut repros (they dont fit perfect near the sideplate, but the rest is perfect and at $25 I was pleased.) I have bought three repro mags, two are plastic bottom, one is walnut (for show).I also bought an takedown tool (marked 83)and a repro navy holster and dual mag pouch. I reblued the gun after some polishing and rust removal. I was supprised that all my numbers matched (minus the barrel and mags). It has no pitting (but has more than a few gouges and scratches) (the ejector spring is pitted quite a bit but works fine and looks decent enough). It has the crown N on the receiver (standing up) and on the middle toggle (sideways), and the "DWM" on the top. The serial is # 483 "h" and all the parts have the 83 on them. It also says "Germany" below the serial. I know it is a shooter due to the reblue and I am OK with that, BUT, I would like to know more about its origins. Thanks in advance for anything you can tell me. If you need more info just ask.

[Frank]

Hello Adam, welcome to the Luger Forum!! OK, so we know it's marked DWM, and the serial number is 483h. So far it soundslike a military designation, but the 30 Cal. barrel is confusing. Are there any other markings on it? Some photos would be nice!!

My first Luger was a real dog!! I played with it for a while, then sent it to Ted for his expert work and now it's one of my favorite shooters.

[Adam]

Here are the pics. It looks worse than it is due to the lighting (It actually has a fairly uniform blue over the entire gun). However I have noticed considerable amounts of gouges and scratches that are not visible to the naked eye. I am sure the 30cal. barrel was the origonal due to the numbers and the "witness mark" . I have had three different barrels on the gun since I got it. I used the four inch 9mm for a while, then I bought a 16 inch barrel with forend (repro of course) it was not what I expected, Then I had a repro artilery barrel and finaly settled with the 6 inch 9mm I have now. I did find more stamps as you can see in the pics.
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_4.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_4.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_5.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_5.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_6.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_6.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_7.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_7.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_8.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/adamsluger_8.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

[Adam]

Here are more pics.

[panda]

I admit of knowing not much about German Lugers. Nevertheless, I find it strange that Germans would spell the name of their own country G-E-R-M-A-N-Y instead of D-E-U-T-S-C-H-L-A-N-D. Got a clue where this comes from and why it was put there?

[Dwight Gruber]

The Crown/N on the receiver and toggle, the original .30 barrel, the military serial number with letter suffix, and the commercial number placement identify this Luger as what is coming to be referred to as an Alphabet Commercial. It is a bit difficult to make out the letter suffix, but it appears to be most like a k, meaning this Luger was manufactured late 1921-early 1922.

Germany or Made In Germany--called an export mark--was stamped on Commercial Lugers destined for export to an English-speaking country, usually the USA where this mark was required by law.

--Dwight

[Adam]

Dwight, Thanks for your info. I am fairly sure the letter suffix is a "h", but it could possibly be a "k". I compared it with the suffix chart on the site and it looks more like an "h" under magnification. I think the camera angle and lighting give it the illusion of being a "k" in the picture. Still, you are the elder here and if you think its a "k" I will take your word for it. You called it an "alphabet Luger", is there any info on this type? Again, Let me stress, "this is the first luger I have seen in person so ask me for any info that might help." Thanks.

[Pete Ebbink]

Adam,

To add to Dwight's excellent info., you luger seems to have received a 6' 9mm barrel somewhere along the line.

Original 6" barrels only came on the Navy luger, but many 1920's Weimar period lugers with shorter than 4" .30 cal. barrels get rebarreled, especially for USA shooters. That is why one-half of the barrel-receiver "witness mark" is missing on the barrel's shoulder where it screws into the receiver (which retains its original witness mark stamping...)

Looks like a very decent buy at $ 400 and a gun you can shoot without worry that a high-dollar collector-grade luger is at risk...

Have a local gunsmith check her out before you do any shooting...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Doubs]

Adam, Dwight is correct in identifying your Luger as an "Alphabet" commercial.... also commonly called a 1920 Commercial. It is the most often encountered Luger of all but they are nice pistols and yours should be a great shooter.

Here is a copy & paste reply I made to an earlier similar inquiry about an Alphabet Luger in the "o" block.

"It is a 1920 Commercial Luger manufactured new sometime in the mid-1920's. Jan Still calls these pistols "Alphabet Lugers" because they were undated and while the serial number included a suffix letter as a military pistol would have, the guns were proofed and the serial numbers placed on the guns in a commercial manner. The pre-war commercial Lugers had a five digit serial number without suffix letter. The finish on your pistol appears to be thin but they are finely-made Lugers and it should be a great shooter. If the finish is at 90% or better, it's a collectable. The 1920 is also the most commonly encountered Luger on the market according to what I've read and seen.

I should add that the pre-war commercial Lugers stopped at roughly serial number 75,000 and picked back up there after the war whereupon the five-digit serial number commercials ultimately went to approximately 92,000. At this point they began production of the "Alphabet" commercial Lugers beginning at about 2000i which essentially picks up where the five digit guns left off. (1-10,000 without suffix letters plus 1-10,000 for each letter a-h plus 2000 in "i" equals 92,000 or where the Alphabet Lugers begin production.)

In case that's difficult to follow, normal military serial numbering went thusly: Lugers were made each year (1910, 1911 etc.) in blocks of 10,000 with the first block not having a suffix letter. The second block would be 1-10,000 "a", then 1-10,000 "b" etc. until they reached the end of the year at whatever letter suffix had been attained. Some early years only made it to "b". At the end of each year, the serial number sequence was repeated. Thus, you can have a 1916 DWM serial number 8595c and also a 1916 Erfurt serial number 8595c. That's not to mention the same serial number could be used in 1913, 1914, 1917 & 1918. So, when you record your military Luger's serial number, the maker and year and barrel length are important as some serial numbers were also repeated in a given year for Artillery Lugers.

Finally, where the commercial Alphabet Lugers differ from military pistols besides not having a year date (and having hidden numbers on some parts)is that the serial numbers did not begin over when the end of a year was reached. The 2000i commercial was made in 1923 (IIRC) and the letters ran sequentially into later years (1925, 1926 etc.) without a break.

When Mauser began military production of the Luger, they continued the practice of serial numbering begun by the Alphabet Lugers in that suffix letters continued into each successive year without starting over. In all other respects, military serial numbering by Mauser mirrored previous military practice. i.e., sideplates and locking bolts had the digits on the side and not hidden and military inspection and acceptance stamps were placed on the right receiver wall.

BTW, the word "GERMANY" on the frame indicates manufacture for export to an English-speaking country. This is a practice that dates to long before WW1.

I hope this helps and isn't too confusing."

After looking at the pictures, I'm leaning toward the suffix letter being an "h". Just my opinion though.

[Dwight Gruber]

Elder. *sheesh*! Anyway,

I thought long and hard before deciding that was a k suffix. You are right about the camera angle and lighting, also it looks like it may have been poorly stamped. To my own eye it has more of the characteristics of the k than the h . In addition, the picture you took of the trigger plate edge numbering shows the suffix at an extreme angle, and the "break" in the short stroke visible from that angle gave me confidence in my interpretation.

In addition, an h suffix would be an anomaly on this pistol.

Many Commercial Lugers were WWI military guns, often with their chamber dates and military proofs ground off, sometimes replaced by civilian proof marks (the Crown/N). However, the serial numbers on the small parts are stamped on the faces of the parts--on the visible surfaces, for example, of the trigger plate and takedown lever.

Your parts are stamped in the "hidden", Commercial fashion. This tells me that the Luger was newly-produced as a Commercial weapon.

When DWM began to stamp Commercial Lugers in late 1920 with letter suffix serial numbers, they started with the i suffix (and ended with the v suffix in 1930). This is the letter suffix equivalent of 92000, which is where the 5-digit Commercial serial numbering ended. I realize this is confusing; Luger serial numbering is a complex topic worthy of its own explanation. This fact, however, is sufficient to explain my conclusion.

Since Alphabet Commercials started with the i suffix block, they will not be found with the h suffix. The rest of the characteristics of your Luger are entirely consistent with 1920s-era commercial production, and do not, at least in the views you provided, have any characteristics otherwise. Therefore, the letter stamping must be k .

By the way, you are to be complimented on your detail photographs, and you have a really nice ensemble and a Luger which you have done very well by, both in your attention to it and you purchase price.

--Dwight

[Doubs]

Dwight, you're absolutely correct. An "h" is not probable when the series began with 2000i. Attribute my mistake to an old-age brain f**t.

I do own an Erfurt commercial of that period where the only alterations were changing the barrel and removing the date. Otherwise, the pistol is 100% Imperial military issue and all matching.

[Adam]

Thank You all for your help. Dwight, I hope I did not offend you with the "Elder" comment. I just meant you were more experienced. You have all been very helpful and I have learned a lot from these posts. The Luger is a good shooter and I am happy to own it (mabey some day I can afford to let Thor work his magic on it.) Again, Thanks to everyone who answered this post.

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Adam:
<strong>I hope I did not offend you with the "Elder" comment.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Nah, made me smile. The "elder" Gruber is my Dad...

--Dwight

[Lugerdoc]

Adam, Dwight and Doubs pretty well covered the know data on your "k" suffix 20 Commerical. Probably made new about 1921 with the matching removed 7.65x95 or 98mm long barrel. TH