Luger Artillery Pistol

rmc · 12-31-2009, 08:54 PM

A couple of weeks ago, I fired a 1918 DWM Luger artillery pistol (8" barrel) I inherited from my uncle. The first round fired without a hitch, but I could not fire any additional rounds. The first round's casing ejected fine and the second round was chambered, but would not fired. At the time, I was with my nephew and was using ammunition he brought along for his Sig P226 9 mm. My local gun dealer thinks that maybe I needed a higher grain cartridge because the Luger magazines are finicky and the gun was designed for higher pressure rounds. (His words, not mine.)

So, any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm a newbie to the enjoyment of pistol shooting, so please don't feel as if you are over-explaining anything to me. I am very interested in any information you can provide.

Also, I've read many posts regarding whether, or not, one should shoot an old Luger. Some say shoot, wile others advise against doing so. I will say that unfortunately my pistol has matching serial numbers everywhere, except on the side plate. Again, my local gun dealer opined that he felt it was in 80% condition, and would have been worth around $2,000 if all numbers matched, but since the side plate didn't, the value was cut in half. So, if this was your pistol, would you shoot with it or clean it and tuck it away?

Many thanks. Ralph

CAP Black · 12-31-2009, 09:12 PM

It sounds like to me that you want to shoot it as part of your enjoyment of it. Nothing wrong with that. It may be better than what I would call a shooter. The price of $1,000 maybe immaterial to you. The ammo should be 9mm LUGER. If the ammo isn't stout enough it will be slow to load but that has nothing to do with firing. Once it is loaded it should fire - or some other problem exists.
Jack

FNorm · 12-31-2009, 10:40 PM

rmc,

You'll find lots of info in the "Shooting and Reloading" Forum. Down towards the bottom of the page.

FN

DavidJayUden · 01-01-2010, 12:23 AM

9mm Luger, wither 115 or 125 grain. Don't load the mag. all the way, maybe 5 rounds, and really grip the gun very tight. No limp wristing.
dju

lugerholsterrepair · 01-01-2010, 01:10 AM

Ralph, The first round's casing ejected fine and the second round was chambered, but would not fired.

Did the pistol click? Was there a dimple in the unfired cartridge primer? Did you manually eject the second round and try again?

With an unknown sideplate it's possible the pistol did not kock after the first round was fired.

Jerry Burney

rmc · 01-01-2010, 08:10 AM

Hi Jerry:

On the second round, the pistol did not click. As far as dimpling, we didn't think to look at the unfired rounds. Yes, we did manually eject the second round, and the same thing happened . . . it fired the round, but would not fire any subsequent rounds. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Ralph, The first round's casing ejected fine and the second round was chambered, but would not fired.

Did the pistol click? Was there a dimple in the unfired cartridge primer? Did you manually eject the second round and try again?

With an unknown sideplate it's possible the pistol did not kock after the first round was fired.

Jerry Burney

rmc · 01-01-2010, 08:11 AM

Thanks. I did look, got some great information.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FNorm

rmc,

You'll find lots of info in the "Shooting and Reloading" Forum. Down towards the bottom of the page.

FN

rmc · 01-01-2010, 08:13 AM

Thanks, CAP Black, I will try purchasing the 9mm Luger ammo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAP Black

It sounds like to me that you want to shoot it as part of your enjoyment of it. Nothing wrong with that. It may be better than what I would call a shooter. The price of $1,000 maybe immaterial to you. The ammo should be 9mm LUGER. If the ammo isn't stout enough it will be slow to load but that has nothing to do with firing. Once it is loaded it should fire - or some other problem exists.
Jack

rmc · 01-01-2010, 08:15 AM

Thanks, David. From some of the other replies I've received, I'm now thinking that my nephew's 9mm ammo was not right for my Luger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

9mm Luger, wither 115 or 125 grain. Don't load the mag. all the way, maybe 5 rounds, and really grip the gun very tight. No limp wristing.
dju

rmc · 01-01-2010, 08:23 AM

Thank you all for your input. I greatly appreciate your taking the time to respond.

As a follow-up, only CAP Black offered an opinion on whether, or not, any of you would routinely shoot the Luger I described. As I wrote, it's only an 80% pistol, but it really is in nice condition. I have no illusions that it is a one-of-a-kind collectible, but still, would any of you use it for target shooting or clean it and put it safely away? Thanks.

DavidJayUden · 01-01-2010, 10:06 AM

Are you certain that the toggle is closing all the way on the subsequent round? If the knobs are up just a bit the gun will not function. Try bumping them down (pointed downrange of course) and see if it will go boom, or at least click, then.
Somehow in the back of my mind I'm envisioning some 80 years of hardened dirt and grease in the toggle or rust/lead/dirt in the chamber.
A good cleaning may be in order.
Happy New Years all!
dju

Thor · 01-01-2010, 10:23 AM

It sounds like the Trigger is not resetting. If it ejects and chambers okay, ammo is of sufficient power. There is a lot of info on this problem, as it is common, in the other sections.
Lugerdoc or Hugh can also tell you how to fix it. Read about it here
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=16187

Sometimes it is over rotation of the trigger lever (part 108) located inside the sideplate and sometimes a weak sear bar (018) PLUNGER spring (disconnector spring) and sometimes a very strong sear bar leaf spring (019)can do this too. When you release the trigger after releasing the firing pin and the action has cycled you should hear an audible "click" that noise is the plunger on the end of the sear bar popping forward so the gun can be fired again. If this plunger does not come forward the gun will not fire. You can actually watch this take place by removing the toggle train from the gun and reassemblying it without the train(breechblock, front and rear toggle links) and sliding the barrelled receiver back and forth while you work the trigger. You should see the plunger pop forward when you release the trigger. DONT DONT DONT try and bend the trigger lever as it is hardened and you will only have a broken one. SOMETIMES an over rotation will even result in a trigger lever scratch or bluing removal on the side of the receiver like this picture.

If the trigger lever is rotating far enough to scratch the receiver a lot of times it does not retract enough when you release the trigger for the plunger to get by it. Any gun that comes in to be restored that has this condition, I will reset the trigger lever to clear the receiver by the thickness of a piece of masking tape. That also usually fixes the reset problem. But it could be as simple as needing to replace the plunger spring, you just need to look at everything to see what condition you have that is causing the problem. Lugerdoc usually has these small springs in stock. He is a whiz when it comes to fixing them.

Lugerdoc · 01-01-2010, 11:33 AM

rmc, As Thor mentioned above, your problem is not the ammo, but most likely in the trigger to sear linkage. Whoever installed the side plate probably did not do a proper trigger job at the same time, as these parts are not interchangaable and require some fitting. Quite often, when installing the side plate, the first round will fire, but the disconnector plunger in the trigger bar (sear) if unable to get under the lever in the side plate to fire the next round. I know that we have members in NORVA that could probably fix this for you. If not, I get jobs like yours in weekly. TH

rmc · 01-02-2010, 09:12 AM

Yes, I'm 100% certain the toggle closed all the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Are you certain that the toggle is closing all the way on the subsequent round? If the knobs are up just a bit the gun will not function. Try bumping them down (pointed downrange of course) and see if it will go boom, or at least click, then.
Somehow in the back of my mind I'm envisioning some 80 years of hardened dirt and grease in the toggle or rust/lead/dirt in the chamber.
A good cleaning may be in order.
Happy New Years all!
dju

rmc · 01-02-2010, 09:17 AM

Terrific information, Ted. Many thanks! I'm pretty sure I'm not competent to perform any repairs, but hopefully I can find someone who has specific knowledge and experience with Lugers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor

It sounds like the Trigger is not resetting. If it ejects and chambers okay, ammo is of sufficient power. There is a lot of info on this problem, as it is common, in the other sections.
Lugerdoc or Hugh can also tell you how to fix it. Read about it here
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=16187

Sometimes it is over rotation of the trigger lever (part 108) located inside the sideplate and sometimes a weak sear bar (018) PLUNGER spring (disconnector spring) and sometimes a very strong sear bar leaf spring (019)can do this too. When you release the trigger after releasing the firing pin and the action has cycled you should hear an audible "click" that noise is the plunger on the end of the sear bar popping forward so the gun can be fired again. If this plunger does not come forward the gun will not fire. You can actually watch this take place by removing the toggle train from the gun and reassemblying it without the train(breechblock, front and rear toggle links) and sliding the barrelled receiver back and forth while you work the trigger. You should see the plunger pop forward when you release the trigger. DONT DONT DONT try and bend the trigger lever as it is hardened and you will only have a broken one. SOMETIMES an over rotation will even result in a trigger lever scratch or bluing removal on the side of the receiver like this picture.

If the trigger lever is rotating far enough to scratch the receiver a lot of times it does not retract enough when you release the trigger for the plunger to get by it. Any gun that comes in to be restored that has this condition, I will reset the trigger lever to clear the receiver by the thickness of a piece of masking tape. That also usually fixes the reset problem. But it could be as simple as needing to replace the plunger spring, you just need to look at everything to see what condition you have that is causing the problem. Lugerdoc usually has these small springs in stock. He is a whiz when it comes to fixing them.

Thor · 01-02-2010, 12:21 PM

rmc,this is really a common problem we run into alot. Lugerdoc, Hugh or myself could do the repairs for you. Where are you located? I see Lugerdoc said NORVA but I didnt see where he got that from so if I missed something, forgive me. I would certainly take it to someone that works on Lugers. Lugerdoc would have any spare parts needed and his repair might be the fastest too.

rmc · 01-02-2010, 01:06 PM

Hello, Thor.

Unfortunately, I live in Massachusetts so it would require shipping my Luger. I already e-mailed Luger Doc and I plan on calling him on Monday during business hours. I'm a little hesitant to ship it for fear of something happening to it in the mail. Would you happen to have any recommendations on a reputable gunsmith in the eastern Massachusetts area?

Many thanks. Ralph

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor

rmc,this is really a common problem we run into alot. Lugerdoc, Hugh or myself could do the repairs for you. Where are you located? I see Lugerdoc said NORVA but I didnt see where he got that from so if I missed something, forgive me. I would certainly take it to someone that works on Lugers. Lugerdoc would have any spare parts needed and his repair might be the fastest too.

Ron Smith · 01-02-2010, 01:16 PM

"the gun was designed for higher pressure rounds".

This is not true. High intensity ammo will beat a Luger to death. Stick with standard velocity Winchester White Box or S&B ammo.

BTW, what's the number on your side plate? What number do you need?

Ron

Thor · 01-02-2010, 01:24 PM

Nope, dont know of anyone, Lugerdoc is the best bet.

Vlim · 01-02-2010, 03:17 PM

About the high pressure rounds.

The original 9mm Luger (or 9mm parabellum, whatever) round was designed around a slower burning powder that developed a pressure curve that differed from that of most modern 9mm para ammunition. I agree with Ron that modern high pressure rounds like the +P and +P+ stuff should be avoided, although a luger probably outlives that ammo longer than any other pistol (which would also be beaten to pulp with long term use).

Winchester White Box 115gr and Sellier & Bellot 115 and 124gr are rounds that stick close to the original specifications and are absolutely suitable for the luger pistols. For some milder shooting, the S&B subsonic works quite well also.

Bear in mind that the metallurgy of the older lugers (DWM, Erfurt) differs from that of the later Mauser versions and that, close to 100 years old, metal will begin to fail.

12-31-2009, 08:54 PM	#1
rmc User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern MA Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luger Artillery Pistol A couple of weeks ago, I fired a 1918 DWM Luger artillery pistol (8" barrel) I inherited from my uncle. The first round fired without a hitch, but I could not fire any additional rounds. The first round's casing ejected fine and the second round was chambered, but would not fired. At the time, I was with my nephew and was using ammunition he brought along for his Sig P226 9 mm. My local gun dealer thinks that maybe I needed a higher grain cartridge because the Luger magazines are finicky and the gun was designed for higher pressure rounds. (His words, not mine.) So, any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm a newbie to the enjoyment of pistol shooting, so please don't feel as if you are over-explaining anything to me. I am very interested in any information you can provide. Also, I've read many posts regarding whether, or not, one should shoot an old Luger. Some say shoot, wile others advise against doing so. I will say that unfortunately my pistol has matching serial numbers everywhere, except on the side plate. Again, my local gun dealer opined that he felt it was in 80% condition, and would have been worth around $2,000 if all numbers matched, but since the side plate didn't, the value was cut in half. So, if this was your pistol, would you shoot with it or clean it and tuck it away? Many thanks. Ralph

12-31-2009, 09:12 PM	#2
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Ammo & shooting It sounds like to me that you want to shoot it as part of your enjoyment of it. Nothing wrong with that. It may be better than what I would call a shooter. The price of $1,000 maybe immaterial to you. The ammo should be 9mm LUGER. If the ammo isn't stout enough it will be slow to load but that has nothing to do with firing. Once it is loaded it should fire - or some other problem exists. Jack

01-01-2010, 01:10 AM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ralph, The first round's casing ejected fine and the second round was chambered, but would not fired. Did the pistol click? Was there a dimple in the unfired cartridge primer? Did you manually eject the second round and try again? With an unknown sideplate it's possible the pistol did not kock after the first round was fired. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-01-2010, 10:23 AM	#12
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	It sounds like the Trigger is not resetting. If it ejects and chambers okay, ammo is of sufficient power. There is a lot of info on this problem, as it is common, in the other sections. Lugerdoc or Hugh can also tell you how to fix it. Read about it here http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=16187 Sometimes it is over rotation of the trigger lever (part 108) located inside the sideplate and sometimes a weak sear bar (018) PLUNGER spring (disconnector spring) and sometimes a very strong sear bar leaf spring (019)can do this too. When you release the trigger after releasing the firing pin and the action has cycled you should hear an audible "click" that noise is the plunger on the end of the sear bar popping forward so the gun can be fired again. If this plunger does not come forward the gun will not fire. You can actually watch this take place by removing the toggle train from the gun and reassemblying it without the train(breechblock, front and rear toggle links) and sliding the barrelled receiver back and forth while you work the trigger. You should see the plunger pop forward when you release the trigger. DONT DONT DONT try and bend the trigger lever as it is hardened and you will only have a broken one. SOMETIMES an over rotation will even result in a trigger lever scratch or bluing removal on the side of the receiver like this picture. If the trigger lever is rotating far enough to scratch the receiver a lot of times it does not retract enough when you release the trigger for the plunger to get by it. Any gun that comes in to be restored that has this condition, I will reset the trigger lever to clear the receiver by the thickness of a piece of masking tape. That also usually fixes the reset problem. But it could be as simple as needing to replace the plunger spring, you just need to look at everything to see what condition you have that is causing the problem. Lugerdoc usually has these small springs in stock. He is a whiz when it comes to fixing them. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Last edited by Thor; 01-01-2010 at 11:26 AM.

01-01-2010, 11:33 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	rmc, As Thor mentioned above, your problem is not the ammo, but most likely in the trigger to sear linkage. Whoever installed the side plate probably did not do a proper trigger job at the same time, as these parts are not interchangaable and require some fitting. Quite often, when installing the side plate, the first round will fire, but the disconnector plunger in the trigger bar (sear) if unable to get under the lever in the side plate to fire the next round. I know that we have members in NORVA that could probably fix this for you. If not, I get jobs like yours in weekly. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-31-2009, 10:40 PM	#3
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	rmc, You'll find lots of info in the "Shooting and Reloading" Forum. Down towards the bottom of the page. FN

01-01-2010, 12:23 AM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	9mm Luger, wither 115 or 125 grain. Don't load the mag. all the way, maybe 5 rounds, and really grip the gun very tight. No limp wristing. dju

01-01-2010, 08:23 AM	#10
rmc User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern MA Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all for your input. I greatly appreciate your taking the time to respond. As a follow-up, only CAP Black offered an opinion on whether, or not, any of you would routinely shoot the Luger I described. As I wrote, it's only an 80% pistol, but it really is in nice condition. I have no illusions that it is a one-of-a-kind collectible, but still, would any of you use it for target shooting or clean it and put it safely away? Thanks.

01-01-2010, 10:06 AM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Are you certain that the toggle is closing all the way on the subsequent round? If the knobs are up just a bit the gun will not function. Try bumping them down (pointed downrange of course) and see if it will go boom, or at least click, then. Somehow in the back of my mind I'm envisioning some 80 years of hardened dirt and grease in the toggle or rust/lead/dirt in the chamber. A good cleaning may be in order. Happy New Years all! dju

01-02-2010, 12:21 PM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	rmc,this is really a common problem we run into alot. Lugerdoc, Hugh or myself could do the repairs for you. Where are you located? I see Lugerdoc said NORVA but I didnt see where he got that from so if I missed something, forgive me. I would certainly take it to someone that works on Lugers. Lugerdoc would have any spare parts needed and his repair might be the fastest too. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-02-2010, 01:16 PM	#18
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"the gun was designed for higher pressure rounds". This is not true. High intensity ammo will beat a Luger to death. Stick with standard velocity Winchester White Box or S&B ammo. BTW, what's the number on your side plate? What number do you need? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

01-02-2010, 01:24 PM	#19
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Nope, dont know of anyone, Lugerdoc is the best bet. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-02-2010, 03:17 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	About the high pressure rounds. The original 9mm Luger (or 9mm parabellum, whatever) round was designed around a slower burning powder that developed a pressure curve that differed from that of most modern 9mm para ammunition. I agree with Ron that modern high pressure rounds like the +P and +P+ stuff should be avoided, although a luger probably outlives that ammo longer than any other pistol (which would also be beaten to pulp with long term use). Winchester White Box 115gr and Sellier & Bellot 115 and 124gr are rounds that stick close to the original specifications and are absolutely suitable for the luger pistols. For some milder shooting, the S&B subsonic works quite well also. Bear in mind that the metallurgy of the older lugers (DWM, Erfurt) differs from that of the later Mauser versions and that, close to 100 years old, metal will begin to fail.