Gomann Berlin

klaus 3338 · 06-24-2009, 06:50 AM

Friedrich Gomann got a patent on the 4. April 1926 for his conversion unit in calibre 4mm M20.
The muzzle protector was refined and used by the Police.
Of interest is the date of the patent because of the acceptance mark which we also can find on the receivers of several Lugers of this time.
Attached are the patent drawings and some photos.

Kansasman · 11-20-2014, 12:20 AM

Hello all,

I purchased this a few years ago and thought it was some type of Luger training accessory or an extra part with a 22 kit? Anyone have any ideas? It is marked Erma with the Waffen Eagle R stamp on it.

Thanks in advance

Edward Tinker · 11-20-2014, 12:30 AM

From what I have always been told, these have two purposes

1. put on the muzzle and then it can be used to clean from the front and not damage anything on the crown

2. they are used to attach the 22 training for a single shot - I have one of these

Kansasman · 11-20-2014, 12:38 AM

Ok that makes sense, I wonder why there is limited information about them on the net? What should one sell for? Thanks again

Edward Tinker · 11-20-2014, 01:04 AM

I have bought them for $50 - $150 - depends on how they are marked

klaus 3338 · 11-20-2014, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansasman

Hello all,

I purchased this a few years ago and thought it was some type of Luger training accessory or an extra part with a 22 kit? Anyone have any ideas? It is marked Erma with the Waffen Eagle R stamp on it.

Thanks in advance

It´s a Police accessorry and was used with an 4 mm M 20 barrel by the Police. A .22 cal. version is commercial.
By the way: the eagle R is a Police acceptance E/B

klaus 3338 · 11-20-2014, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kansasman

Hello all,

I purchased this a few years ago and thought it was some type of Luger training accessory or an extra part with a 22 kit? Anyone have any ideas? It is marked Erma with the Waffen Eagle R stamp on it.

Thanks in advance

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

From what I have always been told, these have two purposes

1. put on the muzzle and then it can be used to clean from the front and not damage anything on the crown

2. they are used to attach the 22 training for a single shot - I have one of these

Edward,
can we see some pictures of the .22 cal. barrel, please.
I could never get one.
Thanks
Klaus

klaus 3338 · 11-20-2014, 03:36 AM

I was not sure but I found one of my older threads about the different types of conversion units.
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...onversion+unit

Schupo · 11-20-2014, 10:01 AM

Here is an example of the police marked ERMA conversion unit. These single shot training units fit the 9mm P.08 by the way.

sheepherder · 11-20-2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schupo

Here is an example of the police marked ERMA conversion unit. These single shot training units fit the 9mm P.08 by the way.

Very interesting! These sub-caliber conversions lock on the front sight base rather than a chamber lock like the .22 Erma conversions (stepped & flanged barrel insert).

George, is the 4mm cartridge center fire??? I suppose it would have to be...

Kansasman · 11-20-2014, 10:21 AM

Very interesting! Thanks guys

kurusu · 11-20-2014, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Very interesting! These sub-caliber conversions lock on the front sight base rather than a chamber lock like the .22 Erma conversions (stepped & flanged barrel insert).

George, is the 4mm cartridge center fire??? I suppose it would have to be...

There is/was a 4mm M20 cartridge. And it's centerfire. It has no powder i'ts propelled by primer alone.

Schupo · 11-20-2014, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Very interesting! These sub-caliber conversions lock on the front sight base rather than a chamber lock like the .22 Erma conversions (stepped & flanged barrel insert).

George, is the 4mm cartridge center fire??? I suppose it would have to be...

Yes, the single cartridge is loaded by hand and extracted with a rod run through from the muzzle. Here is a period description.

George

Edward Tinker · 11-20-2014, 06:10 PM

I have also seen them marked eagle 359 (??) and so I was not of a firm belief if they are always police. I sold that one, the one I kept says S.B. 1703

It has a spring action that you push and then it holds fast to the barrel

Also, somewhere I have a couple of 4mm - my friend Russ had a box of them once. But heavens knows where it is...

Schupo · 11-21-2014, 10:20 AM

Ed,

The military used these Einstecklaufe as well so your WaA marked one was not police issue. Your Schutzpolizei Berlin marked example and mine most certainly are. These are complicated little things and a lot of trouble to use.

George

sheepherder · 11-21-2014, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schupo

These are complicated little things and a lot of trouble to use.

George, I find that a curious comment...I have fired three different .22 Luger sub-caliber conversions in the past Summer and didn't find them much trouble to use...

Ed's 4-piece 4mm conversion doesn't seem all that complicated either...(Although I would prefer the 4mm muzzle clamp that uses the interrupted rear nut)...

Could you explain further???

kurusu · 11-21-2014, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

George, I find that a curious comment...I have fired three different .22 Luger sub-caliber conversions in the past Summer and didn't find them much trouble to use...

Ed's 4-piece 4mm conversion doesn't seem all that complicated either...(Although I would prefer the 4mm muzzle clamp that uses the interrupted rear nut)...

Could you explain further???

Maybe because the 4mm M20 (the one on the left) as no rim and might get stuck after fire.

Click image for larger version

Name: 4mmM20.jpg
Views: 211
Size: 61.2 KB
ID: 44070

sheepherder · 11-21-2014, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

Maybe because the 4mm M20 (the one on the left) as no rim and might get stuck after fire.

Attachment 44070

Mario, is the 4mm barrel insert rifled or smoothbore???

Primer-only ignition can't be all that powerful, even for a .157" projectile...

A barrel insert installed from the muzzle leaves the chamber end unsupported...The Luger chamber is ~.386" dia and the bore is ~.346" dia...So the barrel insert is unsupported at the chamber end by ~.040" total...(.020" radially)...So you can't have too much chamber pressure or it would expand the insert, making it 'difficult' to remove...

kurusu · 11-21-2014, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Mario, is the 4mm barrel insert rifled or smoothbore???

Primer-only ignition can't be all that powerful, even for a .157" projectile...

A barrel insert installed from the muzzle leaves the chamber end unsupported...The Luger chamber is ~.386" dia and the bore is ~.346" dia...So the barrel insert is unsupported at the chamber end by ~.040" total...(.020" radially)...So you can't have too much chamber pressure or it would expand the insert, making it 'difficult' to remove...

Now you got me. This contraption was popular in Germay where it didn't need registration ( there were pistols exclusively for this type of cartridge either made on purpose or modified ). Here I've never seen one so can't really answer.

Apparently nowadays these things must be registered as firearms in Germany. So my guess is they will be headed the same way as the dinosaurs

klaus 3338 · 11-21-2014, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

I have also seen them marked eagle 359 (??) and so I was not of a firm belief if they are always police. I sold that one, the one I kept says S.B. 1703

It has a spring action that you push and then it holds fast to the barrel

Also, somewhere I have a couple of 4mm - my friend Russ had a box of them once. But heavens knows where it is...

Edward, it`s a Gomann conversion unit...
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...onversion+unit

06-24-2009, 06:50 AM	#1
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 411 Times in 160 Posts	Gomann Berlin Friedrich Gomann got a patent on the 4. April 1926 for his conversion unit in calibre 4mm M20. The muzzle protector was refined and used by the Police. Of interest is the date of the patent because of the acceptance mark which we also can find on the receivers of several Lugers of this time. Attached are the patent drawings and some photos. Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2014, 12:20 AM	#2
Kansasman User Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 13 Thanked 6 Times in 1 Post	Luger 22 Muzzle Attachment Question Hello all, I purchased this a few years ago and thought it was some type of Luger training accessory or an extra part with a 22 kit? Anyone have any ideas? It is marked Erma with the Waffen Eagle R stamp on it. Thanks in advance Attached Images

11-20-2014, 12:30 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	From what I have always been told, these have two purposes 1. put on the muzzle and then it can be used to clean from the front and not damage anything on the crown 2. they are used to attach the 22 training for a single shot - I have one of these __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-20-2014, 10:01 AM	#9
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	Here is an example of the police marked ERMA conversion unit. These single shot training units fit the 9mm P.08 by the way. Attached Thumbnails __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

11-20-2014, 06:10 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	I have also seen them marked eagle 359 (??) and so I was not of a firm belief if they are always police. I sold that one, the one I kept says S.B. 1703 It has a spring action that you push and then it holds fast to the barrel Also, somewhere I have a couple of 4mm - my friend Russ had a box of them once. But heavens knows where it is... Attached Thumbnails

11-20-2014, 12:38 AM	#4
Kansasman User Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 13 Thanked 6 Times in 1 Post	Ok that makes sense, I wonder why there is limited information about them on the net? What should one sell for? Thanks again

11-20-2014, 01:04 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	I have bought them for $50 - $150 - depends on how they are marked

11-20-2014, 03:36 AM	#8
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 411 Times in 160 Posts	I was not sure but I found one of my older threads about the different types of conversion units. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...onversion+unit

11-20-2014, 10:21 AM	#11
Kansasman User Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 13 Thanked 6 Times in 1 Post	Very interesting! Thanks guys

11-21-2014, 10:20 AM	#15
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	Ed, The military used these Einstecklaufe as well so your WaA marked one was not police issue. Your Schutzpolizei Berlin marked example and mine most certainly are. These are complicated little things and a lot of trouble to use. George __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson