P.06 Navy Luger

JohnF · 12-05-2002, 11:39 AM

As A new member of the Forum, this is my first post and I was wondering if someone could help me out.
I just bought a nice P.06 6" barrel Navy Luger with some interesting markings. Could anyone help me to identify them please?
The pistol is marked Gouv. Kiau. 278 and the unit? marking is O.M.L. 2.6.
I'm pretty sure that the first marking means that the pistol was issued to Tsingtao, the German colony in China but I'm not at all sure about the OML marking. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Brandon · 12-05-2002, 12:53 PM

Hello John,

Here is a rather long quote from Jan Still's Imperial Lugers:

Lugers assigned to the Navy garrison at Tsingtao, the administrative center of Kiaochow, were marked "GOUV. KIAU." with property numbers which range from 8 to 245 (for the 7 so marked Navy Lugers reported). GOUVERNMENT KIAUTSCHOU refers to the Imperial German military government of the colony, which had under it's jurisdiction the following Navy units: Seebataillon, Pionier Kompangnie, Marine Feldbatterie, Matrosenartillerie, and Ostasiatisches Marine Detachement. These units consisted of over 3,000 Navy officers and soldiers, and about 250 Lugers were assigned to them. The reported 7, 1906 Variation Navy Lugers marked "GOUV. KIAU." are marked as follows:

Serial Number - Gripstrap - Left Side Frame

1. 2280 - GOUV. KIAU. 87 - 4.36

2. 3004 - " " 161 - 5.93

3. 3173 - " " 8 - ???

4. 3471 - " " 31 - ???

5. 3981 - " " 245 - ???

6. 4667 - " " 149 - ???

7. 2271a - " " ??? - ???

The GOUV. KIAU. stamp and property number were likely applied in Germany before the Lugers were shipped overseas, at the Kommando des III Stam-Seebataillions (III. ST.S.B.) located in Cuxhaven (this was the administrative center and training/depot unit for the III. S.B. troops in the German colony at Kiaochow). The III Seebataillon consisted of four infantry companies and one mounted company. The four infantry companies were numbered 1,2,3, and 7 and the mounted company was numbered 5. The Ostasiatisches Marinedetachement (O.M.D.) formed a portion of the fourth Seebataillon company.

According to GÃ?Â¶rtz and Walter, 1989, about 75 Navy Lugers were issued to the III Seebataillon and the machine gun platoons of the Seebataillon were among those issued Navy Lugers. The left side frame unit markings for Navy Lugers serial numbers 2280 (4.36) and 3004 (5.93) likely translate as follows:

4.3 = 4. Kompanie, Waffe Nr. 3, III Seebataillon, Ostasiatisches Marine Detachement (The Luger probably went to a machine gun platoon).

5.93 = 5. Kompanie (mounted), Waffe Nr. 93, III. Seebataillon

The Kiaochow China marked Lugers have a very interesting history (originating in Germany to be used by German Marines to fight the Japanese in China) and are highly prized by collectors.

So John,
Can you post pictures of your Luger, with closeups of all the markings? Perhaps you are mistaking an O.M.D. marking for an O.M.L. marking?

I will let one of our resident experts take over from here!

I Can't wait to see learn from this discussion!

Best regards,Brandon

Edward Tinker · 12-05-2002, 01:31 PM

So Brandon, did you type this or scan it in?

If this is one of those rarer and unusual ones, that would be nice!

Ed

JohnF · 12-05-2002, 01:59 PM

Thanks for the quick reply guys!! Brandon, you are right it is OMD but the upper part of the D is very faint. Unfortunately, my camera - or me - isn't up to taking close up pictures of the markings. I have photos of the pistol but I can't work out how to post them here.
Other things that I can tell you are that the safety is marked GESICHERT, all upper case and very clearly stamped. This is in the lower position.
Other markings on the gun include what looks like an eagle and also a crown over an M. These are in several places. All numbers on the gun match although the wooden toggle magazine is unmarked. It came with a holster Stamped Gouv Kaiu 278 and OMD 26, which is numbered to the gun. I'm not sure about the holster though as the flap looks strange - it tapers to a point just below the hole for the stud.

Edward Tinker · 12-05-2002, 02:21 PM

John,

There is a tutorial here; http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...&f=11&t=000072 , but you can send me the pictures and I will post them for you if you'd like. Just use my e-mail below and I can help out.

Ed

JohnF · 12-05-2002, 02:36 PM

Thanks for the help Ed. Here's the first picture.

JohnF · 12-05-2002, 02:38 PM

And here's another one.

Brandon · 12-05-2002, 03:57 PM

Hi John,
It appears that your Luger is indeed 1 of about 250 issued to the Naval troops garrisoned at Tsingtao, Yours being the eighth brought to public attention!

I would guess that the O.M.D. marking would mean Ostasiatisches Marinedetachement, I have no clue about the 2.6., it seems that an O.M.D. marked peice should be marked 4.6 (4th company Waffe #6) because Still states: "The Ostasiatisches Marinedetachement (O.M.D.) formed a portion of the fourth Seebataillon company" I don't understand why yours is marked to the second company... Where is one of our Navy experts?

Also,
What is the serial number of your Luger? Plus your holster sounds correct to me, could you post photos of it too?

Regards,Brandon

P.S. Ed, I typed the first reply, it took a while

Ron Wood · 12-05-2002, 04:05 PM

You found a good one!!! A scarce variation in what appears to be very nice condition, particularly for a naval weapon that saw duty in a colony. Brandon did an excellent job of research for you, and as you and he have discovered, you have an Ostasiatisches Marinendetachement, Kompanie 2, Waffe Nr. 6 (East Asiatic Naval Detachment, 2nd Company, Weapon number 6.) Great work you guys, and thank you for sharing a fine weapon and information. By the way, as you have described it, the holster sounds like an authentic navy issue. And numbered to the gun too, WOW!

P.S. To add to the good news, I suspect your serial number is pretty low since it appears that you have a 1906 First Issue Unaltered!

Brandon · 12-05-2002, 04:13 PM

Ron,
So it is correct for the pistol to be marked to the 2nd company instead of the 4th?

Brandon...

JohnF · 12-05-2002, 04:19 PM

Thank you all so much for the great information. I really appreciate it. Here's a photo of the pistol with the holster.

Ron Wood · 12-05-2002, 04:20 PM

Good point about the 4th Company, Brandon. Still states that the markings are "likely" translated as stated, so there may be some different interpretation. Also, the OMD was assigned to two different locations, so this weapon may have belonged to a portion that was detached and assigned to the 2nd Seebataillon Company for operational control. But that, good sir, is only a wild guess.

Steve Richards · 12-05-2002, 07:38 PM

What a find! The rest of us are just jealous. Congratulations on having such an unususal pistol.

Steve

Brandon · 12-05-2002, 08:27 PM

Ron,
AH HA! I think you are on to somthing! I would now GUESS that since the O.M.D. was responsible for "Guarding the German legations in Peking and Tientsin" the Otasiatisches Marinedetachement would have to be split into two units, thus we end up with Lugers marked O.M.D. 1.20. (Example) and O.M.D. 2.6.

I will ask Jan Still, maybe he will know somthing!

Regards,Brandon

P.S. John has your Luger been de-activated?

JohnF · 12-06-2002, 03:51 AM

Yes, I'm afraid that it has been deactivated in accordance with UK law. (No I didn't have it done myself!!) However, this has been very sympathetically done and there is no visible sign from the outside and the pistol can still be cocked and stripped normally. Most unusually, the proof house markings that certify deactivation have been applied on the inside of the frame to preserve the exterior appearance.
On a separate note, I was wondering how it could have found it's way to the UK and it occured to me that Royal Navy units participated in the assault of Tsingtao and it could have come back with one of the Navy personnel. There is a great book, sadly out of print, called "The Fall of TsingTao" by Edwin Hoyt, which explains that much overlooked battle very well.

Big Norm · 12-06-2002, 10:48 AM

What a historical treasure. But I cried a little bit inside when I read that it had been deactivated. But I congratulate you on your find. It would be nice if you could get pictures of the markings and post them on our permanent owners corner. I never knew that any of the guns escaped. I learn something new every day. Terrific holster.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 12-06-2002, 11:15 AM

JohnF,

I too congratulate you on your find and am saddened by the news of deactivation of such an historical Luger...

The holster also seems to be in excellent condition for its age and duty history...

If you will have a serious closeup photo study made of your Luger, I will assist you to create a permanent Member Gallery album worthy of it so that the Luger collecting community world wide can learn from your good fortune.

JohnF · 12-06-2002, 12:35 PM

One correction to my earlier post about the safety. I think that I was ambiguous in my posting about the position of the GESICHERT stamp. It is visible when the lever is in the up position. Does this mean that the pistol is altered or unaltered? I can't see any sign of alteration on the gun.

Ron Wood · 12-06-2002, 01:39 PM

It is unaltered. That is the original position of the GESICHERT marking on the '06 First Issue Navy.

phoenix · 12-09-2002, 04:54 PM

Very interesting indeed! I will add another Navy 1906 1st issue altered "Gouv. Kiau." to the list - mine in serial no. 3386 and marked "4" (smallest number reported so far). I have posted a photo in the members' gallery. More to follow.

12-05-2002, 11:39 AM	#1
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	P.06 Navy Luger As A new member of the Forum, this is my first post and I was wondering if someone could help me out. I just bought a nice P.06 6" barrel Navy Luger with some interesting markings. Could anyone help me to identify them please? The pistol is marked Gouv. Kiau. 278 and the unit? marking is O.M.L. 2.6. I'm pretty sure that the first marking means that the pistol was issued to Tsingtao, the German colony in China but I'm not at all sure about the OML marking. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

12-05-2002, 01:31 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	So Brandon, did you type this or scan it in? If this is one of those rarer and unusual ones, that would be nice! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-05-2002, 02:21 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	John, There is a tutorial here; http://forums.lugerforum.com/lugerfo...&f=11&t=000072 , but you can send me the pictures and I will post them for you if you'd like. Just use my e-mail below and I can help out. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-05-2002, 04:05 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	You found a good one!!! A scarce variation in what appears to be very nice condition, particularly for a naval weapon that saw duty in a colony. Brandon did an excellent job of research for you, and as you and he have discovered, you have an Ostasiatisches Marinendetachement, Kompanie 2, Waffe Nr. 6 (East Asiatic Naval Detachment, 2nd Company, Weapon number 6.) Great work you guys, and thank you for sharing a fine weapon and information. By the way, as you have described it, the holster sounds like an authentic navy issue. And numbered to the gun too, WOW! P.S. To add to the good news, I suspect your serial number is pretty low since it appears that you have a 1906 First Issue Unaltered! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-05-2002, 04:20 PM	#12
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Good point about the 4th Company, Brandon. Still states that the markings are "likely" translated as stated, so there may be some different interpretation. Also, the OMD was assigned to two different locations, so this weapon may have belonged to a portion that was detached and assigned to the 2nd Seebataillon Company for operational control. But that, good sir, is only a wild guess. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-05-2002, 12:53 PM	#2
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello John, Here is a rather long quote from Jan Still's Imperial Lugers: Lugers assigned to the Navy garrison at Tsingtao, the administrative center of Kiaochow, were marked "GOUV. KIAU." with property numbers which range from 8 to 245 (for the 7 so marked Navy Lugers reported). GOUVERNMENT KIAUTSCHOU refers to the Imperial German military government of the colony, which had under it's jurisdiction the following Navy units: Seebataillon, Pionier Kompangnie, Marine Feldbatterie, Matrosenartillerie, and Ostasiatisches Marine Detachement. These units consisted of over 3,000 Navy officers and soldiers, and about 250 Lugers were assigned to them. The reported 7, 1906 Variation Navy Lugers marked "GOUV. KIAU." are marked as follows: Serial Number - Gripstrap - Left Side Frame 1. 2280 - GOUV. KIAU. 87 - 4.36 2. 3004 - " " 161 - 5.93 3. 3173 - " " 8 - ??? 4. 3471 - " " 31 - ??? 5. 3981 - " " 245 - ??? 6. 4667 - " " 149 - ??? 7. 2271a - " " ??? - ??? The GOUV. KIAU. stamp and property number were likely applied in Germany before the Lugers were shipped overseas, at the Kommando des III Stam-Seebataillions (III. ST.S.B.) located in Cuxhaven (this was the administrative center and training/depot unit for the III. S.B. troops in the German colony at Kiaochow). The III Seebataillon consisted of four infantry companies and one mounted company. The four infantry companies were numbered 1,2,3, and 7 and the mounted company was numbered 5. The Ostasiatisches Marinedetachement (O.M.D.) formed a portion of the fourth Seebataillon company. According to GÃ?Â¶rtz and Walter, 1989, about 75 Navy Lugers were issued to the III Seebataillon and the machine gun platoons of the Seebataillon were among those issued Navy Lugers. The left side frame unit markings for Navy Lugers serial numbers 2280 (4.36) and 3004 (5.93) likely translate as follows: 4.3 = 4. Kompanie, Waffe Nr. 3, III Seebataillon, Ostasiatisches Marine Detachement (The Luger probably went to a machine gun platoon). 5.93 = 5. Kompanie (mounted), Waffe Nr. 93, III. Seebataillon The Kiaochow China marked Lugers have a very interesting history (originating in Germany to be used by German Marines to fight the Japanese in China) and are highly prized by collectors. So John, Can you post pictures of your Luger, with closeups of all the markings? Perhaps you are mistaking an O.M.D. marking for an O.M.L. marking? I will let one of our resident experts take over from here! I Can't wait to see learn from this discussion! Best regards,Brandon

12-05-2002, 01:59 PM	#4
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the quick reply guys!! Brandon, you are right it is OMD but the upper part of the D is very faint. Unfortunately, my camera - or me - isn't up to taking close up pictures of the markings. I have photos of the pistol but I can't work out how to post them here. Other things that I can tell you are that the safety is marked GESICHERT, all upper case and very clearly stamped. This is in the lower position. Other markings on the gun include what looks like an eagle and also a crown over an M. These are in several places. All numbers on the gun match although the wooden toggle magazine is unmarked. It came with a holster Stamped Gouv Kaiu 278 and OMD 26, which is numbered to the gun. I'm not sure about the holster though as the flap looks strange - it tapers to a point just below the hole for the stud.

12-05-2002, 02:36 PM	#6
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks for the help Ed. Here's the first picture.

12-05-2002, 02:38 PM	#7
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	And here's another one.

12-05-2002, 03:57 PM	#8
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John, It appears that your Luger is indeed 1 of about 250 issued to the Naval troops garrisoned at Tsingtao, Yours being the eighth brought to public attention! I would guess that the O.M.D. marking would mean Ostasiatisches Marinedetachement, I have no clue about the 2.6., it seems that an O.M.D. marked peice should be marked 4.6 (4th company Waffe #6) because Still states: "The Ostasiatisches Marinedetachement (O.M.D.) formed a portion of the fourth Seebataillon company" I don't understand why yours is marked to the second company... Where is one of our Navy experts? Also, What is the serial number of your Luger? Plus your holster sounds correct to me, could you post photos of it too? Regards,Brandon P.S. Ed, I typed the first reply, it took a while

12-05-2002, 04:13 PM	#10
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, So it is correct for the pistol to be marked to the 2nd company instead of the 4th? Brandon...

12-05-2002, 04:19 PM	#11
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you all so much for the great information. I really appreciate it. Here's a photo of the pistol with the holster.

12-05-2002, 07:38 PM	#13
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What a find! The rest of us are just jealous. Congratulations on having such an unususal pistol. Steve

12-05-2002, 08:27 PM	#14
Brandon User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tennessee, USA Posts: 329 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, AH HA! I think you are on to somthing! I would now GUESS that since the O.M.D. was responsible for "Guarding the German legations in Peking and Tientsin" the Otasiatisches Marinedetachement would have to be split into two units, thus we end up with Lugers marked O.M.D. 1.20. (Example) and O.M.D. 2.6. I will ask Jan Still, maybe he will know somthing! Regards,Brandon P.S. John has your Luger been de-activated?

12-06-2002, 03:51 AM	#15
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes, I'm afraid that it has been deactivated in accordance with UK law. (No I didn't have it done myself!!) However, this has been very sympathetically done and there is no visible sign from the outside and the pistol can still be cocked and stripped normally. Most unusually, the proof house markings that certify deactivation have been applied on the inside of the frame to preserve the exterior appearance. On a separate note, I was wondering how it could have found it's way to the UK and it occured to me that Royal Navy units participated in the assault of Tsingtao and it could have come back with one of the Navy personnel. There is a great book, sadly out of print, called "The Fall of TsingTao" by Edwin Hoyt, which explains that much overlooked battle very well.

12-06-2002, 10:48 AM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	What a historical treasure. But I cried a little bit inside when I read that it had been deactivated. But I congratulate you on your find. It would be nice if you could get pictures of the markings and post them on our permanent owners corner. I never knew that any of the guns escaped. I learn something new every day. Terrific holster. Big Norm

12-06-2002, 11:15 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	JohnF, I too congratulate you on your find and am saddened by the news of deactivation of such an historical Luger... The holster also seems to be in excellent condition for its age and duty history... If you will have a serious closeup photo study made of your Luger, I will assist you to create a permanent Member Gallery album worthy of it so that the Luger collecting community world wide can learn from your good fortune. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-06-2002, 12:35 PM	#18
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	One correction to my earlier post about the safety. I think that I was ambiguous in my posting about the position of the GESICHERT stamp. It is visible when the lever is in the up position. Does this mean that the pistol is altered or unaltered? I can't see any sign of alteration on the gun.

12-06-2002, 01:39 PM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	It is unaltered. That is the original position of the GESICHERT marking on the '06 First Issue Navy. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-09-2002, 04:54 PM	#20
phoenix User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 39 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Very interesting indeed! I will add another Navy 1906 1st issue altered "Gouv. Kiau." to the list - mine in serial no. 3386 and marked "4" (smallest number reported so far). I have posted a photo in the members' gallery. More to follow. __________________ Stephen A. Petroni www.fesac.eu