Terminology Question...?

Pete Ebbink · 07-20-2003, 11:36 AM

Noticed some sellers use the term "very good, renumbered magazine"...

Does this mean...?

1. An originally matching magazine that has been renumbered to another gun's serial...and then was reunited with the original gun.

- or -

2. A magazine that does not match its present gun and has been re-marked/stamped to match it.

In either case, can one assume this was arsenal or amourer work...?...since Cottage Industry folks would usually remove the original number stamping and add "new" numbers...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Frank · 07-20-2003, 02:57 PM

Pete, I can only give you my take on this subject. One will find a magazine with the proper acceptance mark and suffix. Then grind (sand) off the original number and stamp the new "matching" number on the bottom.

This does two things. First, it cheats the potential buyer and second, screws up a perfectly good original magazine. It does do one other thing, it makes me angry!!!

Herb · 07-20-2003, 03:23 PM

About terminology, take a look at this Mint+ (must be new) condition magazine as described by the seller http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4653777

Edward Tinker · 07-20-2003, 03:43 PM

Herb, I bet I am confused as you are.

How can you have a "mint" base and yet "SURFACE FROST/PIN PIONT RUST ABOUT 30% OF BODY"

Ed

Herb · 07-20-2003, 04:55 PM

Beats me but that is one UGLY mag. If that one is mint I'd hate to see one of his that is 'poor'. I see him bidding on EBay quite a lot, he bids way too much on some items,IMO, has outbid me on several things that I really didn't need anyway. Might be a forum member too with that handle.

Pete Ebbink · 07-20-2003, 08:59 PM

Frank,

What I am asking about is where the original number is left in place, and another number is stamped along side or on top of the first number...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

policeluger · 07-20-2003, 10:11 PM

He states that the mag bottom is mint, and goes on too state that the body of the mag is in far less condition. You need too read the ad again. My guess is that while a once mint mag was allowed too rust perhaps through neglect, the wood, of course suffered no such affect. There is a "po8" and a "p08" on eBay. The difference is the letter "o" and the number"0". If this condition is "poor/ulgy", and no one trust bright new looking Lugers/tools/clips....what is a collector too do?. An unprotected metal object 80 years old, plus or minus, is going too show is age. I seldom bid on Ebay, but you know items can be won or lost over a few cents or dollars, and Herb sounds cranky over it. Perhaps we would all feel better if the body was re-polished or plated?

Frank · 07-21-2003, 10:06 AM

Hi Guys, thought you might want a good laugh and goes well with the topic of renumbered magazines. Try:

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4668286

Here is a 1939, Code 42 with "two matching magazines" One magazine is numbered with an L-Block suffix, the other has an I-Block suffix. Both are droop wing eagle 63.

The problems are the acceptance marks should be stick wing eagle 63 and the earliest 1939, Code 42 is in the P-Block.

The rest of the hipe is just another good story. Don't buy the story, buy the weapon!!! BTW, the Luger might be a nice one!!

<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

John Sabato · 07-21-2003, 10:29 AM

Hey Frank... one other thing that was hard to see... but in addition to the suffix letters on the magazine being non-matching to each other... apparently neither matches the suffix on the frame which appears to be a "s"

This is a negative and enlarged image of the fuzzy photograph that purported to show the serial number... funny how only this photo was fuzzy... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

Sure looks like a script "s" to me!

Frank · 07-21-2003, 11:31 AM

Hey John, could be an "S"!! All I know is it ain't an "i" or an "l", that's an eye or an ell!!

If you look at the magazines, there are definate "flat" spots where the numbers are. I wonder if that means they have been altered???

Still <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

John Sabato · 07-21-2003, 11:58 AM

I just finished closely examining the photos of the Mag bottoms Frank and I have come to the conclusion that the flat spots where the numbers appear must have been created by "accidently" dropping the mags on a concrete surface several hundred times ... all that compressed metal caused by the dropping must have reshaped the atomic molecules where the "L" and the "I" lower case letters are so that they don't resemble each other any more...or the "S" on the frame either ...(NOT !) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> those mag bottoms are so shiney that you have to wear

It is literally unbelievable the stories that accompany some Lugers... Is there really one born every minute?

<img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

This Luger is WAY over priced for what you are getting... unless you consider that you are paying for all the labor in the cottage industries in this country... <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

Herb · 07-21-2003, 12:28 PM

Policeluger, Herb could care less, I point out the descriptions he used to grade the mags. Would you be happy with one of the mags he described if no pictures were available and you bought it based on the description? I prefer the magazine condition to match closely the condition of the Luger it is going into, minty Luger-minty mag. I get irritated when I see on Gunbroker, Auction Arms and other sites where the seller grades the gun as NRA fine, excellent, very good or whatever and then states that it has been professionally refinished or reblued which automatically grades it as NRA 'good'. Either they honestly don't know the grading system, which escapes me as the site usually has a link to the grading system, or they are trying to intentionally mislead a potential buyer. This hobby is truly a buyer beware one now.

Frank · 07-21-2003, 12:29 PM

Hey John, all I know is that I feel sorry for those that are buying the story. I have contacted the seller and haven't heard back yet, but plan to continue the surveillance!

policeluger · 07-21-2003, 04:00 PM

NRA grading was written for guns, and it is a bit hard too use it on clips...I was waiting too see how long it took you too get it, and you didn't, on AA I am po8. The clip has a most mint wood bottom, and the body areas of shallow pitting, BUT...I have not tried too cover it up, polish/touch up, it is honest, and if you look at my AA feed back, always unsolicited, you'll see several commented that the item sent them was better then described, you should also use that when rating someone...no disrespect ment here, and all in good Luger spirit, but you have a good point, just like you said I want out of Kalifornia and want too move to Utah. Perhaps someday.

Frank · 07-21-2003, 08:11 PM

UPDATE on Auction Arms: The seller has changed the description on the pistol and has allowed any of the previous bidders out of the contract. He has emailed me and thanked me for the Luger Lesson. He seems to be an honest person.

John Sabato · 07-22-2003, 08:45 AM

That's good news Frank... let's see how the pistol get's listed next time...

07-20-2003, 11:36 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Terminology Question...? Noticed some sellers use the term "very good, renumbered magazine"... Does this mean...? 1. An originally matching magazine that has been renumbered to another gun's serial...and then was reunited with the original gun. - or - 2. A magazine that does not match its present gun and has been re-marked/stamped to match it. In either case, can one assume this was arsenal or amourer work...?...since Cottage Industry folks would usually remove the original number stamping and add "new" numbers... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-20-2003, 03:23 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	About terminology, take a look at this Mint+ (must be new) condition magazine as described by the seller http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4653777 __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-20-2003, 03:43 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Herb, I bet I am confused as you are. How can you have a "mint" base and yet "SURFACE FROST/PIN PIONT RUST ABOUT 30% OF BODY" Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-20-2003, 04:55 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Beats me but that is one UGLY mag. If that one is mint I'd hate to see one of his that is 'poor'. I see him bidding on EBay quite a lot, he bids way too much on some items,IMO, has outbid me on several things that I really didn't need anyway. Might be a forum member too with that handle. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-21-2003, 10:29 AM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Hey Frank... one other thing that was hard to see... but in addition to the suffix letters on the magazine being non-matching to each other... apparently neither matches the suffix on the frame which appears to be a "s" This is a negative and enlarged image of the fuzzy photograph that purported to show the serial number... funny how only this photo was fuzzy... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Sure looks like a script "s" to me! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-20-2003, 02:57 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Pete, I can only give you my take on this subject. One will find a magazine with the proper acceptance mark and suffix. Then grind (sand) off the original number and stamp the new "matching" number on the bottom. This does two things. First, it cheats the potential buyer and second, screws up a perfectly good original magazine. It does do one other thing, it makes me angry!!!

07-20-2003, 08:59 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Frank, What I am asking about is where the original number is left in place, and another number is stamped along side or on top of the first number... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-20-2003, 10:11 PM	#7
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	He states that the mag bottom is mint, and goes on too state that the body of the mag is in far less condition. You need too read the ad again. My guess is that while a once mint mag was allowed too rust perhaps through neglect, the wood, of course suffered no such affect. There is a "po8" and a "p08" on eBay. The difference is the letter "o" and the number"0". If this condition is "poor/ulgy", and no one trust bright new looking Lugers/tools/clips....what is a collector too do?. An unprotected metal object 80 years old, plus or minus, is going too show is age. I seldom bid on Ebay, but you know items can be won or lost over a few cents or dollars, and Herb sounds cranky over it. Perhaps we would all feel better if the body was re-polished or plated?

07-21-2003, 10:06 AM	#8
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Guys, thought you might want a good laugh and goes well with the topic of renumbered magazines. Try: http://www.auctionarms.com/search/di...temNum=4668286 Here is a 1939, Code 42 with "two matching magazines" One magazine is numbered with an L-Block suffix, the other has an I-Block suffix. Both are droop wing eagle 63. The problems are the acceptance marks should be stick wing eagle 63 and the earliest 1939, Code 42 is in the P-Block. The rest of the hipe is just another good story. Don't buy the story, buy the weapon!!! BTW, the Luger might be a nice one!! <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

07-21-2003, 11:31 AM	#10
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hey John, could be an "S"!! All I know is it ain't an "i" or an "l", that's an eye or an ell!! If you look at the magazines, there are definate "flat" spots where the numbers are. I wonder if that means they have been altered??? Still <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

07-21-2003, 11:58 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I just finished closely examining the photos of the Mag bottoms Frank and I have come to the conclusion that the flat spots where the numbers appear must have been created by "accidently" dropping the mags on a concrete surface several hundred times ... all that compressed metal caused by the dropping must have reshaped the atomic molecules where the "L" and the "I" lower case letters are so that they don't resemble each other any more...or the "S" on the frame either ...(NOT !) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> those mag bottoms are so shiney that you have to wear It is literally unbelievable the stories that accompany some Lugers... Is there really one born every minute? <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> This Luger is WAY over priced for what you are getting... unless you consider that you are paying for all the labor in the cottage industries in this country... <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-21-2003, 12:28 PM	#12
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Policeluger, Herb could care less, I point out the descriptions he used to grade the mags. Would you be happy with one of the mags he described if no pictures were available and you bought it based on the description? I prefer the magazine condition to match closely the condition of the Luger it is going into, minty Luger-minty mag. I get irritated when I see on Gunbroker, Auction Arms and other sites where the seller grades the gun as NRA fine, excellent, very good or whatever and then states that it has been professionally refinished or reblued which automatically grades it as NRA 'good'. Either they honestly don't know the grading system, which escapes me as the site usually has a link to the grading system, or they are trying to intentionally mislead a potential buyer. This hobby is truly a buyer beware one now. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

07-21-2003, 12:29 PM	#13
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Hey John, all I know is that I feel sorry for those that are buying the story. I have contacted the seller and haven't heard back yet, but plan to continue the surveillance!

07-21-2003, 04:00 PM	#14
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	NRA grading was written for guns, and it is a bit hard too use it on clips...I was waiting too see how long it took you too get it, and you didn't, on AA I am po8. The clip has a most mint wood bottom, and the body areas of shallow pitting, BUT...I have not tried too cover it up, polish/touch up, it is honest, and if you look at my AA feed back, always unsolicited, you'll see several commented that the item sent them was better then described, you should also use that when rating someone...no disrespect ment here, and all in good Luger spirit, but you have a good point, just like you said I want out of Kalifornia and want too move to Utah. Perhaps someday.

07-21-2003, 08:11 PM	#15
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	UPDATE on Auction Arms: The seller has changed the description on the pistol and has allowed any of the previous bidders out of the contract. He has emailed me and thanked me for the Luger Lesson. He seems to be an honest person.

07-22-2003, 08:45 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	That's good news Frank... let's see how the pistol get's listed next time... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*