1914 Erfurt stock markings

smokey stover · 12-12-2018, 01:28 PM

Newbie here looking for an explanation of these marks found on the upper edge of a stock. Thanks !

lugerholsterrepair · 12-12-2018, 09:04 PM

Rob, The stock isn't an original WW1 imperial German Luger stock so the markings are really so much gibberish. Do you have a photo of the whole stock?

smokey stover · 12-13-2018, 12:10 AM

There is also a ".32" stamped in the pistol at the rear. Is that anything to do with the ".32" in the wood ?

HerrKaiser · 12-13-2018, 12:20 AM

An initial thought would be .32 caliber, but as an Erfurt it’s all but certain to be a 9mm military gun, correct?

lugerholsterrepair · 12-13-2018, 12:36 AM

There is also a ".32" stamped in the pistol at the rear. Is that anything to do with the ".32" in the wood ? Rob, No, sort of..someone with a set of stamps went crazy on this rig. The .32 on your pistol is a defacement. I am sure it had something to do with Mr. happy stampy but it's all bogus. The stock, leathers, markings, everything to do with this except your pistol, is bad and your pistol has a bad .32 on it. All meaningless. Unless you can find Mr. happy stampy and waterboard it out of him.

You will NEVER see a number on an Artillery unless it's a a unit mark, with a period in front of it.

The stock has brass washers used on vintage kitchen splash board and the stock iron has huge screw heads.

Ron Wood · 12-13-2018, 01:19 AM

Jerry,
You are most likely 100% correct, you usually are, but I am a bit inclined to give this one the benefit of the doubt and give it a second look. Even though the stock is very dark walnut, the slots for the shoulder strap appear like they might be chamfered on both sides like a repro (I'm not sure they are), and the stock iron screws most likely are replacements, there is a bit of logic to the markings. The markings are non-standard but they do fit the format described by Görtz and Bryans for 4th Artillery Regiment, 5th Battery, weapon #32, and the weapon inventory number 32 is matched on the gun in the same style. The 1920 property mark and strange other undecipherable mark where the crown/fraktur letter would be are a puzzle, but I am not quite ready to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Respectfully,
Ron

P.S. I haven't heard of "Smokey Stover" in years...Rob must be nearly as old as I am!

lugerholsterrepair · 12-13-2018, 01:35 AM

Ron, I LOVE an optimist! AND a good course and discourse! There is an explanation for the "fit the format described by Görtz and Bryans" either happenstance, serendipity or Mr Happy Stampy copied it from a known unit mark? If you take a close look at the stock, the stock well is all kinds of misshapen/too deep and on the other side the slots are not correct. Beveled around the edges. The acceptance mark if that's what we can call it..certainly not imperial! OK, 1920, another case of Mr. Happy Stamps and some familiarity with the subject Luger. NOW we have a bunch of fake cow peelings attached and it all comes together as blasphemy for those of us who worship at the George Luger alter. Some hunch, some fiction and some fact..but put me down as a non believer.

Ron Wood · 12-13-2018, 01:46 AM

Jerry,
While you were posting I was editing my post. I am not sure the stock slots are incorrect. To my eye, the forward side (toward the front of the stock) are worn but are not beveled like repros (agree that the well looks lousy). Need some more detailed photos, likewise for fake cow peelings...need to see better shots of the stock iron cup, etc. Not sure I am a believer either, but I need more convincing.
Again, respectfully
Ron

smokey stover · 12-13-2018, 07:20 AM

still more photos,( by now I think it may be obvious that I dont make a living in photography !)

smokey stover · 12-13-2018, 07:48 AM

the cleaning rod stamped "32" also

DavidJayUden · 12-13-2018, 09:31 AM

Would it behoove anyone to ask SS to (carefully) remove the screws from the stock attachment iron and closely photo them?
dju

George Anderson · 12-13-2018, 09:59 AM

The 32 on the fake cleaning rod is the final nail. Jerry's verdict is correct. Also the unit marking on the stock follows Imperial regulation while the 32 on the rear frame, were it genuine, would be a pre 1922 Reichswehr provisional marking. Me thinks the "artist" was un-stuck in time.

DonVoigt · 12-13-2018, 10:14 AM

I'm with Jerry and George,
there is nothing right about the stock- aged and incorrectly stamped "boosted" reproduction.
The latch has a flat end, which is also a reproduction tell.

The "32" on the back of the luger should at least have the battery number also.

Shame what was done to the luger; and I can't see enough of the holster to have an idea.

lugerholsterrepair · 12-13-2018, 11:56 AM

Good morning gents! Thank you Rob for the additional photo's. It is as feared, a fanciful tale told in wood & leather. George & Don make some good points..The latch has a flat end, which is also a reproduction tell, I meant to mention myself yesterday but it was late and I forgot but as Don says..always a reproduction tell. Also the carry strap..the holes should have a teardrop shape and the cup dear Yorick, is empty. I was waiting to see the underside of the toe strap but it;s not needed now. The cleaning rod is a mighty long nail but nail it is!

It's more likely than not to find some of these same spurious markings on the holster? Rob, if you have time or inclination after this beating..we might as well look at the rest of it?

Ron Wood · 12-13-2018, 03:30 PM

OK, time to throw in the towel. Thanks guys.
Ron

sheepherder · 12-13-2018, 05:16 PM

Nobody mentioned one of the most common 'tells' of an original artillery...The correct lineup of the two attaching iron screwdriver slots...

How many repros have the slots aligned??? My fantasy artilleries all have repro attaching iron and none have aligned slots and it would be difficult to align them...

12-12-2018, 01:28 PM	#1
smokey stover User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	1914 Erfurt stock markings Newbie here looking for an explanation of these marks found on the upper edge of a stock. Thanks ! Attached Thumbnails

12-12-2018, 09:04 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Rob, The stock isn't an original WW1 imperial German Luger stock so the markings are really so much gibberish. Do you have a photo of the whole stock? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-13-2018, 12:20 AM	#4
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	An initial thought would be .32 caliber, but as an Erfurt it’s all but certain to be a 9mm military gun, correct? __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

12-13-2018, 12:36 AM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	There is also a ".32" stamped in the pistol at the rear. Is that anything to do with the ".32" in the wood ? Rob, No, sort of..someone with a set of stamps went crazy on this rig. The .32 on your pistol is a defacement. I am sure it had something to do with Mr. happy stampy but it's all bogus. The stock, leathers, markings, everything to do with this except your pistol, is bad and your pistol has a bad .32 on it. All meaningless. Unless you can find Mr. happy stampy and waterboard it out of him. You will NEVER see a number on an Artillery unless it's a a unit mark, with a period in front of it. The stock has brass washers used on vintage kitchen splash board and the stock iron has huge screw heads. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-13-2018, 01:19 AM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Jerry, You are most likely 100% correct, you usually are, but I am a bit inclined to give this one the benefit of the doubt and give it a second look. Even though the stock is very dark walnut, the slots for the shoulder strap appear like they might be chamfered on both sides like a repro (I'm not sure they are), and the stock iron screws most likely are replacements, there is a bit of logic to the markings. The markings are non-standard but they do fit the format described by Görtz and Bryans for 4th Artillery Regiment, 5th Battery, weapon #32, and the weapon inventory number 32 is matched on the gun in the same style. The 1920 property mark and strange other undecipherable mark where the crown/fraktur letter would be are a puzzle, but I am not quite ready to throw the baby out with the bath water. Respectfully, Ron P.S. I haven't heard of "Smokey Stover" in years...Rob must be nearly as old as I am! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-13-2018, 12:10 AM	#3
smokey stover User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	more photos There is also a ".32" stamped in the pistol at the rear. Is that anything to do with the ".32" in the wood ? Attached Thumbnails

12-13-2018, 01:35 AM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ron, I LOVE an optimist! AND a good course and discourse! There is an explanation for the "fit the format described by Görtz and Bryans" either happenstance, serendipity or Mr Happy Stampy copied it from a known unit mark? If you take a close look at the stock, the stock well is all kinds of misshapen/too deep and on the other side the slots are not correct. Beveled around the edges. The acceptance mark if that's what we can call it..certainly not imperial! OK, 1920, another case of Mr. Happy Stamps and some familiarity with the subject Luger. NOW we have a bunch of fake cow peelings attached and it all comes together as blasphemy for those of us who worship at the George Luger alter. Some hunch, some fiction and some fact..but put me down as a non believer. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-13-2018, 01:46 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Jerry, While you were posting I was editing my post. I am not sure the stock slots are incorrect. To my eye, the forward side (toward the front of the stock) are worn but are not beveled like repros (agree that the well looks lousy). Need some more detailed photos, likewise for fake cow peelings...need to see better shots of the stock iron cup, etc. Not sure I am a believer either, but I need more convincing. Again, respectfully Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-13-2018, 07:20 AM	#9
smokey stover User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	a few more still more photos,( by now I think it may be obvious that I dont make a living in photography !) Attached Thumbnails

12-13-2018, 07:48 AM	#10
smokey stover User Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 10 Thanks: 6 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	another the cleaning rod stamped "32" also Attached Thumbnails

12-13-2018, 09:31 AM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Would it behoove anyone to ask SS to (carefully) remove the screws from the stock attachment iron and closely photo them? dju

12-13-2018, 09:59 AM	#12
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	The 32 on the fake cleaning rod is the final nail. Jerry's verdict is correct. Also the unit marking on the stock follows Imperial regulation while the 32 on the rear frame, were it genuine, would be a pre 1922 Reichswehr provisional marking. Me thinks the "artist" was un-stuck in time.

12-13-2018, 10:14 AM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I'm with Jerry and George, there is nothing right about the stock- aged and incorrectly stamped "boosted" reproduction. The latch has a flat end, which is also a reproduction tell. The "32" on the back of the luger should at least have the battery number also. Shame what was done to the luger; and I can't see enough of the holster to have an idea. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-13-2018, 11:56 AM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Good morning gents! Thank you Rob for the additional photo's. It is as feared, a fanciful tale told in wood & leather. George & Don make some good points..The latch has a flat end, which is also a reproduction tell, I meant to mention myself yesterday but it was late and I forgot but as Don says..always a reproduction tell. Also the carry strap..the holes should have a teardrop shape and the cup dear Yorick, is empty. I was waiting to see the underside of the toe strap but it;s not needed now. The cleaning rod is a mighty long nail but nail it is! It's more likely than not to find some of these same spurious markings on the holster? Rob, if you have time or inclination after this beating..we might as well look at the rest of it? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-13-2018, 03:30 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	OK, time to throw in the towel. Thanks guys. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-13-2018, 05:16 PM	#16
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Nobody mentioned one of the most common 'tells' of an original artillery...The correct lineup of the two attaching iron screwdriver slots... How many repros have the slots aligned??? My fantasy artilleries all have repro attaching iron and none have aligned slots and it would be difficult to align them... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...