Questions on an Odd Luger?

dz · 11-20-2006, 07:43 PM

I have a Luger that has the following:
1. Dated 1916
2. Reblued and probably renumbered
3. Early WW1 proofs on the rt. side
4. 6 inch Navy barrel
5 the forward toggle is marked with a U and two dots (like a test gun might have) At one time something was buffed off under the U.

This may just be a nothing gun, but I always wonder. Any help would be appreciated. David (I will try to post pics)

dz · 11-20-2006, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zim
I have a Luger that has the following:
1. Dated 1916
2. Reblued and probably renumbered
3. Early WW1 proofs on the rt. side
4. 6 inch Navy barrel
5 the forward toggle is marked with a U and two dots (like a test gun might have) At one time something was buffed off under the U.

This may just be a nothing gun, but I always wonder. Any help would be appreciated. David (I will try to post pics)

drbuster · 11-20-2006, 10:14 PM

David, this is a very interesting luger and one, I hope, begets more comments from Forum members. The strange "U" marking on the forward toggle may be a symbol for a pressure test luger. The closest thing I could find is on page 301 of Kenyon's Lugers at Random, but the marking is a "Ub" and it's on the chamber. The extractor is cherry in color, typical of later Mauser dip blueing. Hope other folks' ideas come forth.

John Sabato · 11-21-2006, 11:34 AM

I have never seen a toggle marked in this manner... no telling where it might come from. If you haven't already, I would recommend that you post these photos or a link on Jan Still's forum... to make sure you get as many theories as possible... A very interesting gun.

dz · 11-21-2006, 05:12 PM

John If you would provide a link to Stills' site I would be grateful. I'm not sure how to do that, otherwise I will redo the info on that site. Thanks David

Pete Ebbink · 11-21-2006, 05:24 PM

http://luger.gunboards.com/

Edward Tinker · 11-21-2006, 05:25 PM

David, always best to post same info on both sites, as there are folks on both sites that do not frequent or they are not signed up on each other site.

I always copy and paste the text, but repost the photo's on the "other" forum...

Ed

Karl · 11-21-2006, 07:04 PM

Zim,

It appears to me from the first photo that there is some kind of spacer between the barrel and the receiver. My best guess is that it might be a long frame barrel on a short frame receiver. More photos of other markings and serial numbers would be useful. FYI, the "U" with two dots above is an umlaut U, presumably the first letter of something spelled that way. KFS

dz · 11-21-2006, 08:23 PM

additional pic

dz · 11-21-2006, 08:24 PM

more pics

drbuster · 11-21-2006, 10:16 PM

Notice the trigger travel adjusting screw on the front of the trigger guard. This sure is a mysterious and interesting luger. Hope it gets on the other Forum as well so more people will get to see it.

Dwight Gruber · 11-21-2006, 11:38 PM

What is the proof mark on the breechblock? Is it a mid-30s eagle proof? Is there a proof on the left receiver or on the barrel? For that matter, is the barrel serial numbered and witness-marked?

--Dwight

Vlim · 11-22-2006, 06:38 AM

Gents,

I'm pretty sure the old stamping was an S/42. Some rotating and enhancing of the image shows the faint outlines of the S and the 2.

Ã?? as well as Ã??b are both acceptable abbreviations for the word Ã??bung (practice, test).

Removing the original manufacturer's logo would help in identifying the pistol as 'messed with' and would therefore protect the original producer against possible liability issues if the 'test pistol' would fail.

Armin · 11-22-2006, 08:29 AM

Hi all,
the Ã?? could also be the abreviation for 'Ã??berdruck' meaning overpressure.
Armin.

Vlim · 11-22-2006, 08:50 AM

Sounds logical.

Voelker · 11-22-2006, 10:28 AM

Or "Ã?Â¼berarbeitet" - reworked.

Lugerdoc · 11-22-2006, 10:58 AM

I have seen a couple 20 commericals in the last 40 years, that had long frame barrels installed in short receiver using this spacer technique. In fact, I have several of these barrel spacers, that I got with other parts from a heir of the Pacific Arms Corp. For sale @$10 each, for anyone foolish enough to want to waste a good long frame barrel on a short frame receiver. I rather see you trade it to me for the correct length new short frame barrel. Incidentally, yesterday I received a quote from a Germany barrel maker, who is willing to make new long frame 9x150mm (6") barrels for us (minimum of 10) with either the standard or high Navy front sight base (for your M1906 Navys) @$200 each. With added S&H and import duties, they will probably retail for at least $250. I will consider bringings some to US, if there is enough interest. TH

dz · 11-22-2006, 06:24 PM

Dwight and others. The breech block has the 1930's eagle, no proofs on left side of receiver or on barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun. Witness mark is perfect on spacer and receiver and the mark on the barrel is very good, but seems a finer cut. The observation on the S/42 is correct, good eye. I noticed the 2 but didn't put it all together. (not too bright on my part). I have no idea what the adjusting screw on the trigger guard is. Thanks for the comments David

Karl · 11-22-2006, 07:27 PM

Zim,

The barrel would have to be RE-numbered to the gun (any signs of grinding/original number?
This is a summary:
1916 frame and receiver (note earlier unrelieved, unnumbered sear bar)
1906 Navy barrel (with custom made sight blade)
S/42 toggle train, front link ground flat and renumbered to frame
Note: breech block "hump" has also been reshaped
Set screw installed on trigger guard to limit trigger travel
Unnumbered side plate?
Grip screws modified for Phillips screwdriver?

Umlaut "U," whatever it means, suggests that this is not a parts gun assembled in the US. Apparent lack of import marks or "GERMANY" stamp suggests it is a bring back gun of some kind. The idea of a test gun is appealing but begs the question: a test gun for who? If my weak knowledge of Mauser lugers is correct, the gun could not have been assembled prior to 1937. This is an interesting Luger. KFS

dz · 11-22-2006, 08:23 PM

Karl I believe the barrel markings were ground off and it and the frame were renumbered. A real mystery, thanks for your interest. David

11-20-2006, 07:43 PM	#1
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 54 Times in 38 Posts	Questions on an Odd Luger? I have a Luger that has the following: 1. Dated 1916 2. Reblued and probably renumbered 3. Early WW1 proofs on the rt. side 4. 6 inch Navy barrel 5 the forward toggle is marked with a U and two dots (like a test gun might have) At one time something was buffed off under the U. This may just be a nothing gun, but I always wonder. Any help would be appreciated. David (I will try to post pics)

11-21-2006, 11:34 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I have never seen a toggle marked in this manner... no telling where it might come from. If you haven't already, I would recommend that you post these photos or a link on Jan Still's forum... to make sure you get as many theories as possible... A very interesting gun. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-21-2006, 05:25 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	David, always best to post same info on both sites, as there are folks on both sites that do not frequent or they are not signed up on each other site. I always copy and paste the text, but repost the photo's on the "other" forum... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-22-2006, 10:58 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I have seen a couple 20 commericals in the last 40 years, that had long frame barrels installed in short receiver using this spacer technique. In fact, I have several of these barrel spacers, that I got with other parts from a heir of the Pacific Arms Corp. For sale @$10 each, for anyone foolish enough to want to waste a good long frame barrel on a short frame receiver. I rather see you trade it to me for the correct length new short frame barrel. Incidentally, yesterday I received a quote from a Germany barrel maker, who is willing to make new long frame 9x150mm (6") barrels for us (minimum of 10) with either the standard or high Navy front sight base (for your M1906 Navys) @$200 each. With added S&H and import duties, they will probably retail for at least $250. I will consider bringings some to US, if there is enough interest. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-20-2006, 10:14 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	David, this is a very interesting luger and one, I hope, begets more comments from Forum members. The strange "U" marking on the forward toggle may be a symbol for a pressure test luger. The closest thing I could find is on page 301 of Kenyon's Lugers at Random, but the marking is a "Ub" and it's on the chamber. The extractor is cherry in color, typical of later Mauser dip blueing. Hope other folks' ideas come forth.

11-21-2006, 05:12 PM	#5
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 54 Times in 38 Posts	John If you would provide a link to Stills' site I would be grateful. I'm not sure how to do that, otherwise I will redo the info on that site. Thanks David

11-21-2006, 05:24 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	http://luger.gunboards.com/

11-21-2006, 07:04 PM	#8
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	Zim, It appears to me from the first photo that there is some kind of spacer between the barrel and the receiver. My best guess is that it might be a long frame barrel on a short frame receiver. More photos of other markings and serial numbers would be useful. FYI, the "U" with two dots above is an umlaut U, presumably the first letter of something spelled that way. KFS

11-21-2006, 08:23 PM	#9
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 54 Times in 38 Posts	additional pic

11-21-2006, 08:24 PM	#10
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 54 Times in 38 Posts	more pics

11-21-2006, 10:16 PM	#11
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Notice the trigger travel adjusting screw on the front of the trigger guard. This sure is a mysterious and interesting luger. Hope it gets on the other Forum as well so more people will get to see it.

11-21-2006, 11:38 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	What is the proof mark on the breechblock? Is it a mid-30s eagle proof? Is there a proof on the left receiver or on the barrel? For that matter, is the barrel serial numbered and witness-marked? --Dwight

11-22-2006, 06:38 AM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,048 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,952 Times in 1,199 Posts	Gents, I'm pretty sure the old stamping was an S/42. Some rotating and enhancing of the image shows the faint outlines of the S and the 2. Ã?? as well as Ã??b are both acceptable abbreviations for the word Ã??bung (practice, test). Removing the original manufacturer's logo would help in identifying the pistol as 'messed with' and would therefore protect the original producer against possible liability issues if the 'test pistol' would fail.

11-22-2006, 08:29 AM	#14
Armin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 6 Posts	Hi all, the Ã?? could also be the abreviation for 'Ã??berdruck' meaning overpressure. Armin.

11-22-2006, 08:50 AM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,048 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,952 Times in 1,199 Posts	Sounds logical.

11-22-2006, 10:28 AM	#16
Voelker User Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Or "Ã?Â¼berarbeitet" - reworked.

11-22-2006, 06:24 PM	#18
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 54 Times in 38 Posts	Dwight and others. The breech block has the 1930's eagle, no proofs on left side of receiver or on barrel. The barrel is numbered to the gun. Witness mark is perfect on spacer and receiver and the mark on the barrel is very good, but seems a finer cut. The observation on the S/42 is correct, good eye. I noticed the 2 but didn't put it all together. (not too bright on my part). I have no idea what the adjusting screw on the trigger guard is. Thanks for the comments David

11-22-2006, 07:27 PM	#19
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	Zim, The barrel would have to be RE-numbered to the gun (any signs of grinding/original number? This is a summary: 1916 frame and receiver (note earlier unrelieved, unnumbered sear bar) 1906 Navy barrel (with custom made sight blade) S/42 toggle train, front link ground flat and renumbered to frame Note: breech block "hump" has also been reshaped Set screw installed on trigger guard to limit trigger travel Unnumbered side plate? Grip screws modified for Phillips screwdriver? Umlaut "U," whatever it means, suggests that this is not a parts gun assembled in the US. Apparent lack of import marks or "GERMANY" stamp suggests it is a bring back gun of some kind. The idea of a test gun is appealing but begs the question: a test gun for who? If my weak knowledge of Mauser lugers is correct, the gun could not have been assembled prior to 1937. This is an interesting Luger. KFS

11-22-2006, 08:23 PM	#20
dz Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 259 Thanks: 1 Thanked 54 Times in 38 Posts	Karl I believe the barrel markings were ground off and it and the frame were renumbered. A real mystery, thanks for your interest. David