luftwaffe stock on gb

lfid · 05-01-2008, 01:41 AM

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=98692384

interesting item for sale

just posting for anyone who may have an interest

not mine , not involved in any way

Bill

mauro · 05-01-2008, 04:34 AM

Hello Bill,
This is an interesting stock. I had the opportunity of analysing two of them, one in Italy and one in France.
For more info and pictures about this stock you can refer to my web site:

www.lugerlp08.com

and then in the "Luger Artillery Area" click on: WWII TELESCOPIC STOCK.

Have fun,
Mauro

John Sabato · 05-01-2008, 10:53 AM

Mauro,

Have you uncovered any documentation about the time of manufacture for these types of stocks?

Has there been any documentation about Luftwaffe use?

This is strictly conjecture on my part, but IMHO, I believe that these stocks were produced sometime between 1970 and 1980 based on the methods of construction. While the technology existed in the 1940's for spot-welds, this construction, especially the stock attachment and lever, and the screws do not look like 1940's vintage. I have never seen a 1940's German produced weapon or stock that used screws like the ones in this stock... from the poor focus photos, they appear to be either phillips "X" screws, or combination hex and slotted screws... this is not typical of German military engineering of the time...

If you have any research, I would be grateful if you could share it with the forum.

It is my belief that these stocks were produced as an aftermarket accessory, and possibly for use with reproduction non-gun display Lugers of the time.

mauro · 05-01-2008, 12:13 PM

Hi John,
I can understand your point.
The first time I have seen this stock was in a French book about Lugers.
The author was assuming that this stock was done in the WWII period. Then I have seen one of this stock in Italy and as well the idea was about a WWII production.
This is the only information I have about this stock.
As I have stated in my web site, I was not able to find out documentation about this item.
Sorry if I cannot help more.
Cheers,
Mauro

John Sabato · 05-01-2008, 12:39 PM

Thanks Mauro...

Let me advise the new members of the forum and remind the old members, that there is a Members Gallery Album on this type of stock with many closeup photos courtesy of you... You can see this album here:

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/unusualstock

Vlim · 05-01-2008, 04:07 PM

Hi,

This is interesting. Spot welding was not unknown to the WW2 (and pre-WW2) engineers, but the entire construction seems far too complicated to even act as an 'ersatz' version of a German military wartime stock. The wooden details, however, also pretty much rule out a more recent construction (where the use of plastics would make more sense). It is, however, a wonderfully overcomplicated design, something the Germans were good at.

It if was made during the war, for a German military organization, there should be something in the form of acceptance marks on them.

I am leaning towards John's assessment, although I'm thinking more of the 1950s and 1960s, because of the wood/metal combination.

Ron Smith · 05-02-2008, 11:18 AM

It does appear that the spring tension / strain screw is a phillips head, but the Phillips company began marketing the Phillips patent screw in 1933.

So, it's possibly correct for the 1940s. And the sheet metal work is very reminiscent of German machine gun and machine pistol construction of the late war period.

John Sabato · 05-02-2008, 11:28 AM

Ron I understand that phillips screws predate WW2, but name one other German firearm produced during that period that used Phillips Screws...? I can't think of a single one. In my recollection, phillips screws starting showing up on the less expensive brands of American firearms about 1964 and later... brands like H&R, Plainfield, Savage, etc. Before 1964, most firearms were put together like a fine watch... The master gunsmith that trained me in the late 60's and early '70s (John Dusing-Waynesboro, PA)would bite off the end of his cigar when he opened a new box of something he had ordered out of a catalog if he found that it had phillips screws in it...

Ron Smith · 05-02-2008, 11:52 AM

John,

I agree, that it's not likely, but the spring strain screw would need to have a good bite. I'm just surmising that it's a possibility. I also agree that a phillips screw should not be found on a firearm. I even had a problem with socket heads when they came out.

Ron

05-01-2008, 01:41 AM	#1
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	luftwaffe stock on gb http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=98692384 interesting item for sale just posting for anyone who may have an interest not mine , not involved in any way Bill

05-01-2008, 04:34 AM	#2
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello Bill, This is an interesting stock. I had the opportunity of analysing two of them, one in Italy and one in France. For more info and pictures about this stock you can refer to my web site: www.lugerlp08.com and then in the "Luger Artillery Area" click on: WWII TELESCOPIC STOCK. Have fun, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

05-01-2008, 10:53 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Mauro, Have you uncovered any documentation about the time of manufacture for these types of stocks? Has there been any documentation about Luftwaffe use? This is strictly conjecture on my part, but IMHO, I believe that these stocks were produced sometime between 1970 and 1980 based on the methods of construction. While the technology existed in the 1940's for spot-welds, this construction, especially the stock attachment and lever, and the screws do not look like 1940's vintage. I have never seen a 1940's German produced weapon or stock that used screws like the ones in this stock... from the poor focus photos, they appear to be either phillips "X" screws, or combination hex and slotted screws... this is not typical of German military engineering of the time... If you have any research, I would be grateful if you could share it with the forum. It is my belief that these stocks were produced as an aftermarket accessory, and possibly for use with reproduction non-gun display Lugers of the time. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-01-2008, 12:13 PM	#4
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hi John, I can understand your point. The first time I have seen this stock was in a French book about Lugers. The author was assuming that this stock was done in the WWII period. Then I have seen one of this stock in Italy and as well the idea was about a WWII production. This is the only information I have about this stock. As I have stated in my web site, I was not able to find out documentation about this item. Sorry if I cannot help more. Cheers, Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

05-01-2008, 12:39 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Thanks Mauro... Let me advise the new members of the forum and remind the old members, that there is a Members Gallery Album on this type of stock with many closeup photos courtesy of you... You can see this album here: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/unusualstock __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-01-2008, 04:07 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, This is interesting. Spot welding was not unknown to the WW2 (and pre-WW2) engineers, but the entire construction seems far too complicated to even act as an 'ersatz' version of a German military wartime stock. The wooden details, however, also pretty much rule out a more recent construction (where the use of plastics would make more sense). It is, however, a wonderfully overcomplicated design, something the Germans were good at. It if was made during the war, for a German military organization, there should be something in the form of acceptance marks on them. I am leaning towards John's assessment, although I'm thinking more of the 1950s and 1960s, because of the wood/metal combination.

05-02-2008, 11:18 AM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	It does appear that the spring tension / strain screw is a phillips head, but the Phillips company began marketing the Phillips patent screw in 1933. So, it's possibly correct for the 1940s. And the sheet metal work is very reminiscent of German machine gun and machine pistol construction of the late war period. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-02-2008, 11:28 AM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Ron I understand that phillips screws predate WW2, but name one other German firearm produced during that period that used Phillips Screws...? I can't think of a single one. In my recollection, phillips screws starting showing up on the less expensive brands of American firearms about 1964 and later... brands like H&R, Plainfield, Savage, etc. Before 1964, most firearms were put together like a fine watch... The master gunsmith that trained me in the late 60's and early '70s (John Dusing-Waynesboro, PA)would bite off the end of his cigar when he opened a new box of something he had ordered out of a catalog if he found that it had phillips screws in it... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-02-2008, 11:52 AM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	John, I agree, that it's not likely, but the spring strain screw would need to have a good bite. I'm just surmising that it's a possibility. I also agree that a phillips screw should not be found on a firearm. I even had a problem with socket heads when they came out. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...