Newbie "Whatizit?" question

llewdeb · 06-01-2005, 10:52 AM

I'm an ignorant Luger newbie who is really impressed with the level of detail in the knowledge I see being shared here. Last weekend I stumbled upon a P.08 that has me scratching my crainium trying to figure out. I sure need some help. This thing's a four-inch 9mm with a 1914 chamber date. It has four proofmarks on the forward end of the right side of the upper receiver which resemble some of those shown on LugerForm's reference site for German military proofs for the 1914 time period. The upper receiver and barrel are serially numbered alike, bearing a four digit number with no suffix or prefix. The toggle is marked byf and it and all the remaining numbered parts are numbered to the lower receiver, which also bears a four-digit number without suffix or prefix. The only visible part without a number is the plate to the rear of the takedown lever. The grips are what look like very old black bakelite. (I can see a little frayed fiberous material in the curve above where the left panel is inletted for the magazine release button, which makes me think they aren't just modern-day plastic.) The magazine is marked fxo above an eagle above a 37. It has a black plastic floorplate which has a chunk missing. The finish on the pistol is definitely that blackish hot blue and it appears to have been done a long time ago. There are no discernable rounded corners or polishing over blemishes. It was a nice, uniform blue job. The trigger and all small parts are blued, except the safety tab. It does work good and shoot straight. I couldn't resist giving it a little offhand workout. After reading a lot of previous posts, I am thinking maybe it's a Mauser rework if a DWM 1914 military pistol. Does that make sense? Would that be considered a "black widow" even though it doesn't have a 41 or 42 chamber date? What's something like this worth? Thanks in advance for any information.

George Anderson · 06-01-2005, 11:25 AM

It's a mismatched or mixed parts Luger. Possibly an East German or Russian rework as it seems you might have described a "forced match" toggle train.

John Sabato · 06-01-2005, 11:57 AM

llewdeb,

Welcome to the Lugerforum... As George has pointed out, it is a "parts" Luger, and we could speculate all day, but there is really not much to tell us where and when these parts came together... George's theory is as good as another...

The term "black widow" was coined by a very large dealer in Lugers, and it really has no historical signifigance... It is generally applied to byf marked lugers (mauser manufactured) that are chamber dated either "41" or "42" and have the finely checkered, black bakelite grips... so, in other words, your's is not a "black widow" but likely contains parts from one...

The value of a parts gun is very subjective, and it can range widely from about $350 to 600 or 700 depending on where you find one...

Are the grips checkered? If they are checkered, are the diamonds in neat uniform rows, and a fine border around the edges? Then it is likely they are original German wartime manufacture in 41 or 42... or do they stretch around the curves in a less than uniform manner? Then they are likely Russian replacement grips... another type found on Russian capture Lugers have straight grooves instead of checkering running at the same angle as the grip angle...

Post photos if you get the chance and we can tell you more...

llewdeb · 06-01-2005, 12:31 PM

George, John....thanks for the information. Shouldn't a Russian rework have import marks somewhere? If so, where? I will post pictures as soon as I figure out how. I noticed the place to upload photos on the initial screen a moment too late...I had already clicked the post button. Anyhow, John, I am not sure about the grips. Perhaps you can tell more when I get the pictures up. Thanks again. - Llewdeb (Mike)

John Sabato · 06-01-2005, 12:43 PM

Photo upload link is at the top right of every page...

llewdeb · 06-01-2005, 01:36 PM

Thanks again, John. I have uploaded pictures. They are:

Edward Tinker · 06-01-2005, 02:03 PM

Well Mike, the byf toggle is marked 76, but the serial number is 36 and the frame and barrel don't match serials... So, it really isn't even a force match, as they are assorted parts put together. ...

Ed

Aaron · 06-01-2005, 03:23 PM

Looks like a fairly decent shooter and it does not appear to be a Russian rework since the Russians typically renumber all parts to make them match. Furthermore, I take it that there are no import markings (typically located on the barrel), so that would indicate it is an old parts gun most likely put together in the USA. Enjoy shooting it, but there is no collector value whatsover. The grips are very possibly authentic and would be worth $125 to $150 if they are. Let us see the inside of the grips and we can take a better guess at their authenticity. If they are the real thing, I suggest you sell them and replace them with a cheap pair of replacements rather than risk cracking the good ones by shooting the pistol.

llewdeb · 06-01-2005, 05:33 PM

Ed, Aaron: Thanks for the observations. The number on the barrel and the upper receiver (into which the barrel is screwed, whatever its proper name) are the same, but the picture doesn't make them appear so. Not that it matters much, I guess. Anyhow, in the process of looking closer and closer, I notice what appears to be a tiny eagle mark of some kind just ahead of the front toggle pin on the left side of the breech bolt. I will try to get a picture of it and the undersides of the grips. Meanwhile, could someone tell me what the proofmarks on the upper receiver are? I am guessing since there is no swastika, they must be imperial era? I guess that would make sense with the 1914 chamber date, huh?

llewdeb · 06-01-2005, 06:39 PM

I've shot some pictures of the backside of the grip panels but can't seem to get them to upload. I keep getting a prompt that says my file is too large. I have my camera at its lowest setting and I am not sure what to do now to make the file size work. Anyone have ideas?

llewdeb · 06-02-2005, 12:29 AM

Here's another try....

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgr7.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgr6.jpg

Tomathvl · 06-02-2005, 08:09 AM

The grips pass my visual test for being real.
Tom

John Sabato · 06-02-2005, 10:22 AM

Based on your excellent photographs...I will also confirm the authenticity of the grips as original German issue... IMHO of course!

llewdeb · 06-02-2005, 12:14 PM

Tomathvl, John: Thanks for the confirmation on the grips. Now, where's a good source for a pair of inexpensive replacements? And, what's a fair price? If the price is about the same I wouldn't mind having some used wooden panels, since it seems this piece will still be just a shooter no matter what kind of grips it has. If any of you LugerForum guys need these bakelites and have some useable but less expensive, less collectible panels, I am certainly up for some sort of trade. I really appreciate all the input and information you all have been willing to share. I am a prematurely disabled retiree and I kick up two of three Lugers a year in my rummaging. I have always been fascinated by their workmanship and elegant lines. I generally shoot them and love on them a while, then let them go because I haven't known enough detail to discern a "keeper" from a "shooter". Last year I had an opportunity to buy a long-barrelled model with a grip safety and what I think was an American eagle crest. I passed on it because it had some bad pitting in one spot on the underside of the barrel. Otherwise it was decent. I had two battlefield bring homes complete with holsters several months ago. They were both Mauser coded and pretty rough. I traded them on vintage Winchesters. It's really nice to have a source of good information about them. Thanks, guys.

Edward Tinker · 06-02-2005, 12:22 PM

Well, you can get plastic russian grips off of e-bay or wood older ones, Tom Heller has assorted ones, or I have two sets of "pretty" i.e. not checkered grips sitting by the bedstand or a pair of checkered new ones on a nickled luger I bought recently

weimar_lugers@comcast.net

Ed

John Sabato · 06-02-2005, 03:59 PM

If you want them to look like the ones you have, you can get good reproductions from Brownells

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...spx?p=1746#sku

$27.55 plus shipping...

or you can get good East German VOPO plastic grips (my favorite shooter grips) from Tom Heller...

llewdeb · 06-02-2005, 07:50 PM

Thanks, John. I am sorta leaning towards some checkered wood, since it doesn't seem to be a matter of keeping everything "correct" on this mismatch. May as well go with personal preference, huh?

06-01-2005, 10:52 AM	#1
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Newbie "Whatizit?" question I'm an ignorant Luger newbie who is really impressed with the level of detail in the knowledge I see being shared here. Last weekend I stumbled upon a P.08 that has me scratching my crainium trying to figure out. I sure need some help. This thing's a four-inch 9mm with a 1914 chamber date. It has four proofmarks on the forward end of the right side of the upper receiver which resemble some of those shown on LugerForm's reference site for German military proofs for the 1914 time period. The upper receiver and barrel are serially numbered alike, bearing a four digit number with no suffix or prefix. The toggle is marked byf and it and all the remaining numbered parts are numbered to the lower receiver, which also bears a four-digit number without suffix or prefix. The only visible part without a number is the plate to the rear of the takedown lever. The grips are what look like very old black bakelite. (I can see a little frayed fiberous material in the curve above where the left panel is inletted for the magazine release button, which makes me think they aren't just modern-day plastic.) The magazine is marked fxo above an eagle above a 37. It has a black plastic floorplate which has a chunk missing. The finish on the pistol is definitely that blackish hot blue and it appears to have been done a long time ago. There are no discernable rounded corners or polishing over blemishes. It was a nice, uniform blue job. The trigger and all small parts are blued, except the safety tab. It does work good and shoot straight. I couldn't resist giving it a little offhand workout. After reading a lot of previous posts, I am thinking maybe it's a Mauser rework if a DWM 1914 military pistol. Does that make sense? Would that be considered a "black widow" even though it doesn't have a 41 or 42 chamber date? What's something like this worth? Thanks in advance for any information.

06-01-2005, 11:57 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	llewdeb, Welcome to the Lugerforum... As George has pointed out, it is a "parts" Luger, and we could speculate all day, but there is really not much to tell us where and when these parts came together... George's theory is as good as another... The term "black widow" was coined by a very large dealer in Lugers, and it really has no historical signifigance... It is generally applied to byf marked lugers (mauser manufactured) that are chamber dated either "41" or "42" and have the finely checkered, black bakelite grips... so, in other words, your's is not a "black widow" but likely contains parts from one... The value of a parts gun is very subjective, and it can range widely from about $350 to 600 or 700 depending on where you find one... Are the grips checkered? If they are checkered, are the diamonds in neat uniform rows, and a fine border around the edges? Then it is likely they are original German wartime manufacture in 41 or 42... or do they stretch around the curves in a less than uniform manner? Then they are likely Russian replacement grips... another type found on Russian capture Lugers have straight grooves instead of checkering running at the same angle as the grip angle... Post photos if you get the chance and we can tell you more... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-01-2005, 12:43 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Photo upload link is at the top right of every page... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-02-2005, 10:22 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Based on your excellent photographs...I will also confirm the authenticity of the grips as original German issue... IMHO of course! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-02-2005, 12:22 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,928 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Well, you can get plastic russian grips off of e-bay or wood older ones, Tom Heller has assorted ones, or I have two sets of "pretty" i.e. not checkered grips sitting by the bedstand or a pair of checkered new ones on a nickled luger I bought recently weimar_lugers@comcast.net Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-01-2005, 11:25 AM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	It's a mismatched or mixed parts Luger. Possibly an East German or Russian rework as it seems you might have described a "forced match" toggle train.

06-01-2005, 12:31 PM	#4
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	George, John....thanks for the information. Shouldn't a Russian rework have import marks somewhere? If so, where? I will post pictures as soon as I figure out how. I noticed the place to upload photos on the initial screen a moment too late...I had already clicked the post button. Anyhow, John, I am not sure about the grips. Perhaps you can tell more when I get the pictures up. Thanks again. - Llewdeb (Mike)

06-01-2005, 01:36 PM	#6
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks again, John. I have uploaded pictures. They are:

06-01-2005, 02:03 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,928 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Well Mike, the byf toggle is marked 76, but the serial number is 36 and the frame and barrel don't match serials... So, it really isn't even a force match, as they are assorted parts put together. ... Ed

06-01-2005, 03:23 PM	#8
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Looks like a fairly decent shooter and it does not appear to be a Russian rework since the Russians typically renumber all parts to make them match. Furthermore, I take it that there are no import markings (typically located on the barrel), so that would indicate it is an old parts gun most likely put together in the USA. Enjoy shooting it, but there is no collector value whatsover. The grips are very possibly authentic and would be worth $125 to $150 if they are. Let us see the inside of the grips and we can take a better guess at their authenticity. If they are the real thing, I suggest you sell them and replace them with a cheap pair of replacements rather than risk cracking the good ones by shooting the pistol.

06-01-2005, 05:33 PM	#9
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, Aaron: Thanks for the observations. The number on the barrel and the upper receiver (into which the barrel is screwed, whatever its proper name) are the same, but the picture doesn't make them appear so. Not that it matters much, I guess. Anyhow, in the process of looking closer and closer, I notice what appears to be a tiny eagle mark of some kind just ahead of the front toggle pin on the left side of the breech bolt. I will try to get a picture of it and the undersides of the grips. Meanwhile, could someone tell me what the proofmarks on the upper receiver are? I am guessing since there is no swastika, they must be imperial era? I guess that would make sense with the 1914 chamber date, huh?

06-01-2005, 06:39 PM	#10
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've shot some pictures of the backside of the grip panels but can't seem to get them to upload. I keep getting a prompt that says my file is too large. I have my camera at its lowest setting and I am not sure what to do now to make the file size work. Anyone have ideas?

06-02-2005, 12:29 AM	#11
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's another try.... http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgr7.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/lgr6.jpg

06-02-2005, 08:09 AM	#12
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	The grips pass my visual test for being real. Tom

06-02-2005, 12:14 PM	#14
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Tomathvl, John: Thanks for the confirmation on the grips. Now, where's a good source for a pair of inexpensive replacements? And, what's a fair price? If the price is about the same I wouldn't mind having some used wooden panels, since it seems this piece will still be just a shooter no matter what kind of grips it has. If any of you LugerForum guys need these bakelites and have some useable but less expensive, less collectible panels, I am certainly up for some sort of trade. I really appreciate all the input and information you all have been willing to share. I am a prematurely disabled retiree and I kick up two of three Lugers a year in my rummaging. I have always been fascinated by their workmanship and elegant lines. I generally shoot them and love on them a while, then let them go because I haven't known enough detail to discern a "keeper" from a "shooter". Last year I had an opportunity to buy a long-barrelled model with a grip safety and what I think was an American eagle crest. I passed on it because it had some bad pitting in one spot on the underside of the barrel. Otherwise it was decent. I had two battlefield bring homes complete with holsters several months ago. They were both Mauser coded and pretty rough. I traded them on vintage Winchesters. It's really nice to have a source of good information about them. Thanks, guys.

06-02-2005, 03:59 PM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	If you want them to look like the ones you have, you can get good reproductions from Brownells http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/sto...spx?p=1746#sku $27.55 plus shipping... or you can get good East German VOPO plastic grips (my favorite shooter grips) from Tom Heller... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-02-2005, 07:50 PM	#17
llewdeb User Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Texas (Piney woods...not the desert.) Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, John. I am sorta leaning towards some checkered wood, since it doesn't seem to be a matter of keeping everything "correct" on this mismatch. May as well go with personal preference, huh?