VoPo or Russian Capture? What is this thing worth?

eddiein1984 · 11-27-2006, 10:05 PM

I bought this 1917 DWM a couple months ago on a whim. My first Luger. I was told it was a DDR VoPo rebuild. The entire gun was "force-matched" and reblued. The entire bolt/toggle assembly appears to be taken from a single gun as the serial #60 has been struck out on all those parts and replaced with one matching the frame. The bore is absolutely mint, though I believe it was rebarreled at arsenal. The upper right "flat" on the receiver has an electro pencil "X". There are no nazi markings, but the imperial army markings are all intact on the upper unit right side. So is this a VoPo, or a Russian capture weapon? What is it worth? I paid $750, mainly for its value as a shooter with a new barrel and in tight mechanical condition. Pitting is minimal. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Thanks.

Edward Tinker · 11-27-2006, 10:19 PM

hello eddie, here is the obvious things, started as a 1917 (year) DWM (made by them), I think it is a Vopo as the russian usually have a darker finish, but many times it is hard to tell.

I think you piad towards the high end for a Vopo, but not incredible ($600-$700 for a shooter). No matter what if you like it, that is the important thing.

PS: It is best if you upload photos directly onto the forum,

then the photos stay with the thread.

Ed

c3006 · 11-28-2006, 04:15 AM

I have one with that X penciled on it to and have wondered why that was done.

Vlim · 11-28-2006, 08:33 AM

Hi,

No official documentation on the 'X' yet, but most likely the 'X' was applied to captured/seized/turned in weapons in order to identify them as such (and as Russian property).

Many guns were overhauled in the early 1950's and received new (crown/N proofed) barrels in the process.

John Sabato · 11-28-2006, 08:46 AM

I think it is easy to come to a conclusion that any VOPO Luger would have been Russian Capture first... After all, the East German DDR was a Soviet backed and supplied regime post war, and the East German Army and Police certainly didn't retain their own weapons after they were overrun by the Russians... I believe the overhaul of captured weapons was Russian controlled and then once inspected and function tested they were issued to the subordinate DDR forces for use. So in answer to the first question asked... both Russian, and VOPO... IMHO.

Ron Smith · 11-28-2006, 09:10 AM

My understanding is that the X represents the Crossed Rifles acceptance/ property mark found on original Russian contract Lugers. This one has the VOPO "Target" logo grips and as John said, is probably a Russian capture reissued to East Germany.

Ron

unspellable · 12-05-2006, 01:58 PM

The VoPo Lugers are quite variable. I have a Mauser that is all matched and looks as if it were in near perfect condition before the VoPo refinish job. The bureaucratic mind at work, refinish it whether it needs it or not.

12-07-2006, 03:03 PM

I don't care if its a shooter, it looks great with that Russian Matte finish.
I agree you paid about 100 bucks too much, but I am sure that 10 yrs from now a nice shooter like yours wuill go for over 1 grand.
Just my opinion....Bob

unspellable · 12-08-2006, 02:01 PM

By ironcross4148's argument, you didn't pay too much, you just paid it too soon.

eddiein1984 · 12-10-2006, 01:28 PM

I can accept that I paid $100 too much. I bought it locally from the original owner FTF. No tax, no transfer fee, no gas.

jamese · 12-11-2006, 05:34 AM

Going by Bob's thoughts,

I have a couple in the safe that I bought about 50 years too early!

Jim

Lugerdoc · 12-11-2006, 10:35 AM

Eddie, Most rebarrelled, dipped & force matched were redone by the DDR. The typical Russian captured lugers will still have the original barrel and finish. TH

pipeman45 · 12-11-2006, 02:03 PM

With the price of good shooters going higher every day. I think you didn't do that badly. You only bought a few months too soon.

11-27-2006, 10:05 PM	#1
eddiein1984 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	VoPo or Russian Capture? What is this thing worth? I bought this 1917 DWM a couple months ago on a whim. My first Luger. I was told it was a DDR VoPo rebuild. The entire gun was "force-matched" and reblued. The entire bolt/toggle assembly appears to be taken from a single gun as the serial #60 has been struck out on all those parts and replaced with one matching the frame. The bore is absolutely mint, though I believe it was rebarreled at arsenal. The upper right "flat" on the receiver has an electro pencil "X". There are no nazi markings, but the imperial army markings are all intact on the upper unit right side. So is this a VoPo, or a Russian capture weapon? What is it worth? I paid $750, mainly for its value as a shooter with a new barrel and in tight mechanical condition. Pitting is minimal. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Thanks.

11-27-2006, 10:19 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	hello eddie, here is the obvious things, started as a 1917 (year) DWM (made by them), I think it is a Vopo as the russian usually have a darker finish, but many times it is hard to tell. I think you piad towards the high end for a Vopo, but not incredible ($600-$700 for a shooter). No matter what if you like it, that is the important thing. PS: It is best if you upload photos directly onto the forum, then the photos stay with the thread. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-28-2006, 04:15 AM	#3
c3006 User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: east tn Posts: 526 Thanks: 5 Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts	I have one with that X penciled on it to and have wondered why that was done. __________________ Men Accustomed unto thier arms and their liberties will never endure the yoke. James Harrington 1776

11-28-2006, 08:46 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I think it is easy to come to a conclusion that any VOPO Luger would have been Russian Capture first... After all, the East German DDR was a Soviet backed and supplied regime post war, and the East German Army and Police certainly didn't retain their own weapons after they were overrun by the Russians... I believe the overhaul of captured weapons was Russian controlled and then once inspected and function tested they were issued to the subordinate DDR forces for use. So in answer to the first question asked... both Russian, and VOPO... IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-11-2006, 05:34 AM	#11
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Going by Bob's thoughts, I have a couple in the safe that I bought about 50 years too early! Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

11-28-2006, 08:33 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,042 Thanks: 1,032 Thanked 3,920 Times in 1,193 Posts	Hi, No official documentation on the 'X' yet, but most likely the 'X' was applied to captured/seized/turned in weapons in order to identify them as such (and as Russian property). Many guns were overhauled in the early 1950's and received new (crown/N proofed) barrels in the process.

11-28-2006, 09:10 AM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	My understanding is that the X represents the Crossed Rifles acceptance/ property mark found on original Russian contract Lugers. This one has the VOPO "Target" logo grips and as John said, is probably a Russian capture reissued to East Germany. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

12-05-2006, 01:58 PM	#7
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The VoPo Lugers are quite variable. I have a Mauser that is all matched and looks as if it were in near perfect condition before the VoPo refinish job. The bureaucratic mind at work, refinish it whether it needs it or not.

12-07-2006, 03:03 PM	#8
ironcross4148 Guest Posts: n/a	I don't care if its a shooter, it looks great with that Russian Matte finish. I agree you paid about 100 bucks too much, but I am sure that 10 yrs from now a nice shooter like yours wuill go for over 1 grand. Just my opinion....Bob

12-08-2006, 02:01 PM	#9
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	By ironcross4148's argument, you didn't pay too much, you just paid it too soon.

12-10-2006, 01:28 PM	#10
eddiein1984 User Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I can accept that I paid $100 too much. I bought it locally from the original owner FTF. No tax, no transfer fee, no gas.

12-11-2006, 10:35 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Eddie, Most rebarrelled, dipped & force matched were redone by the DDR. The typical Russian captured lugers will still have the original barrel and finish. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-11-2006, 02:03 PM	#13
pipeman45 User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Kentucky Posts: 539 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	With the price of good shooters going higher every day. I think you didn't do that badly. You only bought a few months too soon. __________________ Dave